When we allowed for no fault divorces, the institute of marriage was undermined and we’ve seen the gradual breakdown of the family unit. This is why I am opposed to the redefinition of marriage as I believe it only further undermines the institute, not strengthens it.

You STILL haven’t posted a viable, valid argument against removing 15c and allowing same sex couples access to equal rights.

The things you HAVE posted have been shown to be incorrect, many, many times and you haven’t responded to any of the posts doing so. That is, in fact, avoiding discussion.

If you can’t even be honest about your own words and behavior, how can we expect to believe anything you say, when you actually DO say something.

I asked: “Now. Any chance that you’ll actually put forth a reasonable, reality-based, defensible argument for not removing 15c?

Or will we have more evasions and misinformation?”

I guess it’s going to be the latter, as usual.

If your position is so strong, why can’t you even state it in a post where you’ve said you’ve stated it? If it’s so strong, why do you have to resort to lying in order to defend it?

I apologize if I’m not able to respond to every single post or if I haven’t restated my position repeatedly but #1 I have other commitments outside of this site and #2 it’s sometimes hard to even follow where someone has asked you a question or responded to a comment, given the way the site is constructed with hundreds of comments not in chronological order.

This glass-house argument is ridiculous.

I very clearly answered your question in my reply. Just because you ignored that doesn’t make it any less true – see? The FACT is that I answered your question. The thing that you made up is that I didn’t.

Other people’s posts aren’t my concern nor responsibility.

You haven’t denounced every lie someone has told, especially the lies you’ve told, so how on earth are you trying to take the moral high ground?

I’ve pointed out your lies and explained, with facts, how they are lies.
THAT makes it so. I can – if I wanted to… which I don’t and haven’t – claim to be a “persuer or upholder of truth” because I haven’t lied. You have. Repeatedly.

And the only thing that makes my position appear as if it is stronger is the fact that it IS stronger. I have expressed my position, many, many times, and explained my reasoning and put forth my argument.
Not once has that argument or position been opposed. Not by you, not by anyone. Instead, you do exactly what you are doing here… weak attempts at shifting the discussion, evading answering questions and straight up refusing to show a single valid argument – that was one of your lies, by the way, when you said that you HAD shown actual arguments – against removing 15c.

Instead, you’ve posted lies and misinformation and logical fallacies.

Now. Any chance that you’ll actually put forth a reasonable, reality-based, defensible argument for not removing 15c?

Or will we have more evasions and misinformation?

What I find funny is that one of your fellow supporters in a previous thread told a ridiculous lie that a 3 year old could easily dismiss and when I called them on it, they refused to admit the lie and you had no issue with it. So please don’t pretend that you are some pursuer or upholder of truth. In fact, I’m not even sure you know what truth is as you’ve refused to answer me.

You can keep saying that I’m lying but it doesn’t make it so. It’s a weak attempt to shift the discussion or to try and appear as if your position is stronger.

It doesn’t mean that you’re right. SSM proponents don’t want to discriminate against polygamists.

You’re REALLY reaching.

Any chance that you’ll actually post a viable reason or argument against removing 15c from the books?

Or will you continue to evade that in order to cherry pick things that you can maybe argue weakly against?

You claim I said “Gay people want to discriminate against polygamists”.

SSM Proponent does not = Gay. All gays are not for SSM & visa versa.

Again, as previously stated, please don’t put words in my mouth…. Looks like you may need to take your own advice on honesty.

My ACTUAL argument… the one you keep ignoring… is:

There is a group of citizens of this country that are being denied rights and privileges that the rest of us have access to. (I posted a list of some of these rights on another thread. You ignored them and ran off, refusing to respond.)
This denial of rights is wrong. The reason that it is wrong is that there is no reason given FOR this denial of rights. This denial of rights is based on one clause in an act, which would be very simple to remove. This clause is discriminatory.

I’m not saying that others are being discriminated against. I’ve never said that.
That is an outright lie.

Of course other people are being discriminated against.

But that is NOT a reason that this group should continue being discriminated against.

We are talking about THIS problem, specifically.
The fact that there are other problems that we need to deal with doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t fix this one.

SO.

I’ll ask again…

Do you have a valid reason for keeping 15c on the books? One that you’re willing to discuss and defend?

I’m more than willing to honestly defend my position. Are you?

Daylilly says:
January 15, 2016
Do the proponents of SSM hate polygamists and other people in various consenting adult relationships, because SSM proponents want to discriminate against anything other than 2 consenting adults getting married.

Your words.

The rest of your post? The usual ad hominems and straw men, accusing me of things I didn’t say.

PLEASE. I’m begging. Try to be honest.

The truth is… the truth. It is things that are real. That are based on facts and data, not – as you seem to enjoy doing – something you just made up whole cloth off the top of your head to suit your needs to support continued discrimination.

Both of you have continuously lied, time after time, again and again, on this subject.
You have twisted words and spread outright mistruths.

You have also, repeatedly, refused to offer one single valid reason to continue discriminating against Bermudians. You keep posting arguments that have been shown to be false or invalid, then disappeared when asked simple questions.

I’ve asked, many times, for a conversation about this. For a discussion.
You haven’t done that. You’ve just posted misinformation and evasions.

It’s disgusting and bad for our country, this level of dishonesty.

Par for the course.

Also, a very nice moving of the goalposts.

Why can’t you ever have an honest, real conversation?

By denying PM services due its beliefs, HP also infringed on PM rights to have those beliefs.

When you disect marriage to what consenting adults feel, you open a very wide door. To say that nothing else but SSM should be considered is very short-sighted and imposing the same prejudices on others that SSM proponents feel has been imposed on them.

Your argument that “polygamy is a different fight” is perhaps the same argument that could have been presented against SSM. It’s something “different”.

But this is baseless, as you have no evidence of this. None. This is all baseless speculation driven by a desperate need to defend your support of discrimination.

Have you asked SSM supporters if they disagree with allowing more than two people in a marriage? I can’t believe I’m taking you seriously on this. Your argument is so insane.

If you are going to say that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to get married because polygamists can’t… then I have to ask, with absolutely no expectation of a sane answer…

Why would that be bad? Why would allowing polygamists to get married be bad? Why oppose it?

“Bullying: using strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.”

Like you and opponents to sam are doing.
You are forcing society to deny people rights.

SSM advocates are trying to do the opposite.
People are affected in negative ways because of your position.
No one will be affected in a negative way because of ours.
In fact, no one – other than the people who will then be able to get married – will be affected at all.

You say:

“As I have stated above – there are valid reasons why people are against SSM – these reasons have been listed over and over again and I will not keep going over it now – you do not agree with them – fine. That is your right.”

But that’s simply not true. You haven’t listed valid reasons. No one has.
You can’t just say “We listed them over and over” without that actually happening. It’s dishonest. It’s a lie. No one has listed a valid reason at all.

As I mentioned to you, it’s not about me agreeing or disagreeing, it’s about facts and the fact is, you haven’t listed a single valid argument that stands up to scrutiny or even a simple discussion.

If you would care to, I’d love to have this discussion. But please, at least have the decency to not lie about it.

To paraphrase you “just saying someone is a liar doesn’t make you a truth teller”

And believe me, you are NOT a truth teller.

You keep pushing this false narrative and you keep getting shown that you’re wrong, but you ignore that.

This “Gay people want to discriminate against polygamists” thing is bizarre and insane. It is completely illogical.
Polygamy is a different fight and, should people wish to push for it, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. But it’s not a fight right now. And you’re only bringing it up as a desperate attempt to rationalize the discrimination you’re supporting.

The “one distinct group” isn’t asking for special privileges, they’re asking for exactly the same privileges that the rest of us share. Removing one clause from one act will not change what marriage is. It will simply allow another group to enjoy it.

I know you won’t read this or respond in a sane manner, but I feel that your lies need to be debunked.

Yet again, no valid, honest, real reasons were given, nor were any decent arguments offered.

Instead we got faux victimhood and hit and run attacks.

Why, exactly, do opponents to SSM think they have the moral high ground?

Every action has consequences… intended and unintended. The everything goes and nothing matters position will cost this community too much.

China and Russia aren’t dictated by the constructs of Christianity, essentially the whole entire world agreed on the definition of marriage, theocracies and communists alike. The whole world is not homophobic.

Also, the reality is that we all have the ability to marry within the current definition of marriage. One distinct group doesn’t want to be included in the existing definition, instead one distinct group wants special privileges to re-write the definition of all marriages to suit its needs. The same group also thinks its fair to discriminate by limiting marriage to only 2 consenting adults in its definition. Now that is truly discriminating, particularly if “all you need is love”. What happens if their is 3,4 or 5 consenting adults. You see the “define” part of the “marriage definition” loses its validity, if anything goes and nothing matters.

Were you present at these forums for the what you called “vile rhetoric”. None of it was hateful in anyway!

Did HP ask for their talking points is a better question? So far we have heard nothing saying they did or even cared to get that far before denying service.

As for the last paragraph lets stay on topic. I’m fairly certain we share the same view there.

Once again marlin you sound irate. Come correct or don’t come at all.

Just saying

Not to mention the nature of the event is clear in its name and Mr. Federer decided to use his executive authority and pull the booking.

Even if he didn’t know the nature of the meeting, the correct thing would have been to contact the head of the organization and simply ask the nature of the booking not deny service because of what he does not know.

The definition of bigot “a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions”

Another view and opinion was going to be expressed and service was denied because of that view.

Just saying

Not to mention the Subject states “Preserve Marriage Meeting”.

In terms of bigotry, doesn’t it mean to be intolerant of another’s view. Well, by an extra shoe and wear it because this one fits you just right. That’s your prerogative to have an opinion, but don’t tell anyone else that they can’t also have an opinion and stand for their beliefs because that would make you the bigot.

If you want fairness, stop supporting discrimination.

And same sex marriage will in no way affect your God’s design for your marriage.

How do you justify that?

Non-religious people can get married. Therefore this is not a restriction against marriage.

And procreation is not a stipulation. Therefore this entire argument is invalid.

Got it.

Yeah. That’s not true at all. None of this is.

Still no actual reasons to keep 15c from you. Why is that?

I know of one person in particular who has no issue publicly bashing him, but who chose not to say a word the night they attended. Perhaps they realize they could do much better attacking him when he’s not present and that they were unable to dispute or debate him face to face.

Please show me one hateful thing that was said by Dr. Ryan Anderson at his talk. I’ll wait.