BPS: Posting Banners On Road Side Is Illegal
The police advised the public that the “posting of banners along Bermuda’s road sides is an illegal practice that should stop immediately” and said that “promoters must take down the banners immediately.”
“It should be noted that anyone who contravenes the Advertisements Regulation Act 1911 is subject to a fine of $720 and in the case of a continuing offence a further fine of $144 for every day during which the offence continues,” the police said.
According to the police, some of the “offending locations” are T-Street junction with Middle Road, Parsons Road Playground, Shelly Bay Sports Field, Scaur Hill and Paget Stop Lights.
This follows after the Ministry of Public Works issued a statement earlier today to remind members of the public of some of the specifications of the Advertisements Regulation Act 1911 [PDF] which regulates the exhibition of outdoor signs and advertising in Bermuda.
The full statement from the police is below:
The Bermuda Police Service advises the public that the posting of banners along Bermuda’s road sides is an illegal practice that should stop immediately. Promoters must take down the banners immediately.
It should be noted that anyone who contravenes the Advertisements Regulation Act 1911 is subject to a fine of $720 and in the case of a continuing offence a further fine of $144 for every day during which the offence continues.
Some of the offending locations are listed below [there are more]
- T-Street junction with Middle Road
- Parsons Road Playground
- Shelly Bay Sports Field
- Scaur Hill
- Paget Stop Lights
Please see the highlighted legislation
Restriction of exhibition of advertisements
2 No person shall, except as otherwise provided by this Act, exhibit any advertisement, upon or over any land except—
- [a] advertisements upon any land relating solely to any entertainment, meeting, auction or sale to be held upon, or in relation to such land or to any property thereon; or
- [b] announcements of the sale or letting of such land; or
- [c] announcements or copies of any proclamation or official notice published by authority of the Governor, the Supreme Court, any Justice of the Peace, either branch of the Legislature, any Government Department, any Government Board, or any officer holding a commission in Her Majesty’s Forces; or
- [d] announcements or notices duly published by proper authority of any meeting of freeholders or others for any parliamentary, municipal or parochial election, or other purpose; or
- [e] advertisements or announcements upon any land, within either municipal area, being land duly licensed for the exhibition of advertisements by the respective municipal corporations :
- Provided that in all such excepted cases, the advertisements shall not contain letters, effigies, figures or other advertising emblems exceeding twelve inches in height; or
- [f] advertisements or announcements exhibited inside a display window of an agent’s business premises of any business, entertainment or occurrence in respect of which such agent acts; or
- [g] advertisements or announcements exhibited inside of any shop, store or place of business, other than any public vehicle or ferry boat; or
- [h] advertisements relating to the sale of land at auction or otherwise; or
- [i] advertisements relating to the arrival or departure of any ship belonging to or employed by any line or company the ships of which ordinarily ply between Bermuda and elsewhere; or
- [j] advertisements published in any book, newspaper, magazine, calendar or periodical; or
- [k] announcements, in letters not exceeding fifteen inches each in height or width, of the business name of the Title 20 Laws of Bermuda Item 9 1989 Revision 3
company, firm or person carrying on business on the premises and the general character of the business carried on therein.
Illuminated and other signs visible from street; sky- signs3 [1] No person shall—
- [a] erect upon, or fix to, or exhibit above, any land, any advertisement supported on or attached to, any post, pole, standard, framework or other support which, or any part of which, or the support of which, is visible against the sky from some point in any street or public way; or
- [b] use or exhibit any kite, balloon, parachute or other similar device, employed wholly or in part for the purpose of any advertisement or announcement, over any land or street; or
- [c] exhibit any flashing or illuminated sign which is visible to any person on any public street or public way.
[2] For the purposes of subsection [1][a], an advertisement, the uppermost part of which is no higher than the roof line of any building on the plot on which it is situate, shall not be deemed to contravene the provisions of that paragraph.
[3] For the purposes of subsection [1][c], an “illuminated sign” means a sign used or intended to be used for the purpose of advertising the lettering or design of which is illuminated from within the components constituting the lettering or design.
About an hour ago I drove past two plywood/billboards set up at Barnes’ Corner….
Bermuda is so beautiful, these are major eyesores in my opinion & simply visual pollution
What OBA Minister is in charge of this act? The Minister can relax the rules if he/she wants. How are people supposed to get the word out about events other than the media. People have been doing this for years and years. Stop acting so FOXing civilize and live a little. Happy people spend money, happy people grow the economy. These same people will go Hamilton and buy new fresh clothes stimulating the retail sector.
OMG this island is so behind the 8 BALL. Next it will be a rule were you can’t drink until age 25.
No, the Minister cannot ‘relax the laws if he wants’.
The law is the law, and until it’s changed, that’s what the BPS has to enforce.
Obvious you don’t work for government this is an ACT not Law. The Minister can change the rules if he desires at any time he wants. Ministers of the OBA are protected and don’t have to answer to anyone. Years ago the car dealers brought in oversized vhilcles that were not permitted on Bermuda’s roads due to the ACT in the Ministry of Transportation. A certain Minister came along and permitted the vehicles to be passed and driven until the Act was adjusted in Parliament where both sides of the House UBP & PLP voted 100% for larger cars to be permitted on Bermuda’s roads.
An Act IS a law. It’s the same thing. Frikin dumbo.
And no, a Minister cannot wake up one day and decide to ‘relax’ a law.
Sorry to tell you this RBKing,
Yes they can!
Ministers are protected under the Act. I use to employed for the government under the UBP and PLP before I retired. If that wasn’t the case half of them would be in West Gate now for the moves they made back than.
Do you want me to carry my indentification at all times too, oh I forgot that’s already in place.
Yep. It’s right there on your shoulder.
Where in the Constitution does it say that Ministers can arbitrarily, on a whim, ‘relax’ laws?
Just because it has happened doesn’t mean it was constitutionally legal.
In fact, it”‘s the other way round. Ministers are charged with upholding the law and the Constitution, not ignoring it.
My goodness!! Which department did you work for with that grammar?
Sorry Pal this is not law. It’s part of the act. It’s an easy fix. People have been doing this for years. From what I understand talking to my friend who works in that department some oba voters complained to their MPs. Now they want to enforce this bad behavior.
so how do you create laws? It’s usually via acts of parliament, afaik.
Is there another way?
A law is an Act. It is the same thing.
The ignorance out there is amazing.
Like the Law they conjured up to suspend ALL contracts.
There is some ignorance on this board. The hierarchy of “laws” in terms of superiority goes as follows:
1. Constitution
2. Statutes (“Acts” of Parliament such as that at issue here)
3. Statutory Instruments (These include “Rules” and occasionally “Regulations” made under an “Act” of Parliament)
4. Ministerial Orders/Notices
This is a statute, or act of parliament, which cannot be amended or repealed except by the House and Senate each voting in session.
the proliferation of these signs is an epidemic and an EYESORE. They are ugly and take away from the beauty of this island especially at Barnes Corner. Simply find alternative ways to promote the events. Radio,T.V, newsprint, social media,flyers handed out or placed under windshield wipers or by post. May cost the promoters a wee bit but still contributing to the island economy. Then maybe VSB wouldn’t have had to close shop? We can all still be happy perhaps more happy.
Social Media faster than “a sign” any where on this island
Very true and the cost is far less than producing a large sign or banner.
Are the banners more attractive when they are politically based FACING THE SAME ROADS but on private property? Like all those billboards posted by BOTH PARTIES in 2012…….
I think I’ll try to save this article with the comments and refer to it during the next election season just in case those hideous things show up again.
Some who are so against these “ugly” signs that are making our “beautiful island” look SO BAD will most likely either sing a different song then or consent to the practice with their silence.
The act should be relaxed, then changed eventually to allow for billboards.. the broke government can charge a fee to use the billboards and create another arbitrary source of revenue.. oh right that takes brains to turn lemons to lemonade I forgot..
Greedy damn island and its outrageous fines…why not$25???….or $50…where did they come up with $720..and why?
it the fine was $25 they no one would care… The fine is there to deter people from breaking the laws that are in place… Personally I think the people who placed these adverts are very lucky that they were warned. They should have been taken straight to court. There was plenty of warning a few months ago after Digicel’s monster at Watford Bridge.
The fines are $0 if you don;t break the law.
Oh dear, this is not going to go over too well especially if the BPS actually get out there & ENFORCE the law.
No worrys. By concert season next year all will be forgotten & you will be able to post again at will.
You’ve got a point there.
THEY SHOULD WORRY ABOUT WHAT TYPE OF INDIVIDUALS THEY BE HIRING; OUT HERE WORRYING ABOUT SOME STUPID BANNER. GET A LIFE BPS!!!!
yeah, why not ignore the law…. while we’re at it why prosecute shop lifters, thieves, and killers. Lets just let the island turn into a free for all!!!
Laws are there for a reason and should be respected…
Yes, laws are there for a reason, but it’s a bit to much at times. Let’s do more about those hooligans who go around stabbing or shooting someone, or stealing, breaking and entering, etc.
The only call by the PLP for a “manhunt” recently was when Roban wanted an APB put out on that guy at Cup Match. That was his high priority. For the usual obvious reasons.
sense of entitlement much?
omg can we not get into the habit of talking like it’s illegal to learn how to read????? We be going backwards…
Where do the advertisements all along East Broadway fit into this, by the way?
Both the Corporation of Hamilton and the Corporation of St. George can license land for the exhibition of advertisements
If the signs are on the BUEI side they are able to grant permission as that is their property! These signs are huge distractions while driving.
You should be looking at the road bird brain, not the signs. I guess you took your eyes off your text messages and spilled your coffe. Oh my!
I thought the purpose of the signs being there was for people to look at them!!
Also along East Broadway,always something there
Are you serious
whats so wrong promoting an event
Thank you, what is so wrong about promoting an event?
Nothing wrong with promoting an event. That is what radio & TV advertising is for.
What would you say to Government issuing permits to put these banners up, at a generous fee of course, along with a penalty if they are not taken down imediatley after the event?
Sound good to you, or do you want that space for free?
If it is illegal..why don’t the police take them down?
I must say that I would like my taxpaying dollars not used for this type of petty public prosecution. Is BELCo paying you a bonus?
What OBA Minister is in charge of this act? The Minister can relax the rules if he/she wants. How are people supposed to get the word out about events other than the media. People have been doing this for years and years. Stop acting so FOXing civilize and live a little. Happy people spend money, happy people grow the economy. These same people will go Hamilton and buy new fresh clothes stimulating the retail sector.
OMG this island is so behind the 8 BALL. Next it will be a rule were you can’t drink until age 25.
‘People have been doing this for years and years’ . Then they’ve been breaking the law and making our island look trashy and tasteless for years and years.
Because a load of idiots break the law and do things for years and years does not make it right or acceptable.
You do know why these signage laws were originally put in place , don’t you ?
No , of course you don’t . You probably want everyone who comes here to think they’re in Coney Island.
does this mean all those preachy godly signs we always see on eastbroadway stop appearing? Or are those ok? If your gonna slam the promoters make it across the board.
Too many cops and too many civil servants looking for things to do. Neither group creates anything and they cost us a ton of money.
We will not be able to afford a sign if this debt is not dealt with – ask Bob Richards. That bye took some licks today.
Not the cops who have failed to do their job on this. Members of the public have complained. And why leave it to the cops. Feel free to take them down.
@legalgal—sure lets all start arresting people, and taking the law into our own hands, why bother the police ABOUT THEIR JOB! can you imagine if most people took law into their own hands we would be enjoying ANARCHY! legalgal check with your legalese pardner um sure they would not agree that public should take law into their own hands, especially when they are not sure what the laws are..Everyday someone throws down trash, should we, the public be fining these offenders , it is a fine of thousands of dollars for littering me thinks.
What i dont get is why are the BPS being criticized…you should be encouraging the government to adjust the laws as they are the ones that make them…BPS are paid to ENFORCE laws made by our government..this law is so old if you actually read it it has been in place since the 80′s.. i swear the only thing that remaons consistant in bermuda is bermudians complaining n criticizing..thats one thing we would definitely win a gold medal for if it was an olympic event
i dont like them but if a permit was charged for them maybe. regulations like at “x”mph windspeeds they must be taken down.
biggest point is the first sign of high winds and they are dangerous to drivers. imagine one blowing around to land on your windscreen? or wrap up around some poor sot on a bike Or major Litter to land in the ocean?
720 is cheap. make it 1200 plus and make some money if you are going to place a fine. Barnes Corner looks like trash.
I agree. And hopefully when they are taken down (replaced) the old one isn’t just thrown in the trees as has been the case.
On another note…. Can people please stop sticking pamphlets under windscreen wipers! They end up all over the parking lots and roads…
JUst fine the ones responsible! It looks so untidy!
You’re probably one of the goody two shoes that called and complained. You all wonder why people are getting so irritable and going stir crazy doing all kinds of weird stuff…we worry about so much insignificant stuff on this island. It’s like living in a fishbowl and getting worse by the day.
By paying a blind eye to ‘insignificant’ things, people feel they can push the envelope to other things.
Chuck a candy wrapper in the bushes, may as well throw a couch on the roadside.
Dash through a yellow light, may as well run through red lights.
Stick posters all over lamp posts, may as well put up banners the size of trucks across the road.
Swipe a pack of chewing gum, may as well swipe whatever else you want from a store.
And so on.
These promoters are hard working people trying to make a buck. Most of the posters I have seen are colorful and neatly placed. They’re taken down when the event is over. People are trying to make a living and survive, and all others seem to want to do is grumble about the view.
They’re an eyesore. And they’re not taken down after the event. The next promoter of the next event takes them down or covers them up.
I don’t understand why people are so upset about the BPS saying to remove the signs. They should be lucky there was a warning and they didn’t tear down the signs ( cause I know they can be expensive to print). I’m sure they can promote by other means, Bermuda is small its not that hard to get the word out about events.
Yes, social media wasn’t invented yesterday. If the promoters want to get their word out, there are plenty of forums that are likely cheaper than printing a dozen of those huge banners.
The promoters can’t be blind to the fact that these types of ads are unlawful and although a good source of entertainment news, are an eyesore in every other way.
Glad that the BPS and others are finally getting around to reminding people of this fact – even if a bit late in the game.
As a visitor to bermuda, I must say that it does look tacky and conflicts with the beauty of the island.
I doubt you’re a visitor. Most if not all visitors are outside enjoying the beach and tourist attraction. When I travel to another Country I’m only concerned about the weather.
You’re probably another twit who thought we could turn the tap of tourism on and off at will
Different reasons though – many visitors come to Bermuda to get away from over-abundant banners and billboards, etc. That’s part of the ‘charm’ of Bermuda.
People traveling from Bermuda are obviously in a different boat.
What a moronic comment, go ahead and insult your bread and butter. Yes I am a visitor staying at a property in Hamilton. But I really don’t care if you believe that or not. But, how do you think visitors get to and from the airport and tourist attractions? I use bus and taxi so the unsightly banners are clearly visible.
There’s no place tackier than New York..
Oh yes there are. Branson, MO., Gatlinburg & Pigeon Forge, TN., Ocean City, MD. just for starters.
Aren’t you swift? That clearly went right over your head!
At the two comments, that’s just rude and So against the Bermuda culture our visitors know. Besides, how do you think our tourists get to the beaches? You don’t know what ship or hotel they’re coming from, but they travel the same roads we do, so of course they’ll see the same signs.
WTH THIS IS BS NOW YA TRYNA CUT THIS FROM US ALSO GUESS WHAT IM TIRED OF SEEING THAT AMERICAS CUP S***
your response is very distorted.
So i take it u will decline any money possibly generated by the americas cup then. None for u. Dont let me catch u accepting any either. Hypocrite
Here is an idea for you Mr Minister. List all the main spots where banners are hung. Everyone know where these spots are. Limit the amount of event banners that can be place there at any one time to 2 or 3. Then charge a fee for the duration of each banner that’s there. Another source of revenue stream?
You think there is a Minister working for the BPS?
Oh yeah. And what will happen? Brown will say he’s “concerned”, Bean will say “yah taxin are people”, and Furbert will say he’s “very concerned”.
That’s what happens whenever the government does anything.
The PLP will come out in support of posters & billboards all over the place. The PLP was never known for being much of enviromentalists.
Take a look at some of the MPs homes. Every possible square inch of property covered with concrete. Start with the one on the shore behind the Apothocary. Who oversaw the plans for the destruction in the BG?
It isn’t like the house is right on the roadside!! You can’t even see it unless you go off the beaten path. You’re being downright ridiculous now.
That may24th Marshall sign on middle road Devonshire needs to come for sure. Whoever puts a sign up should at least be responsible to take it down after the event.
Well…If the act is from 1911…should the fine be the same as then…2 shillings..?
I agree, take the signs down after the event.
About time those responsible for enforcing this took notice of these banners plastered across the island.
To make it worse it appears that once the event has long been completed the banners are left and never collected and removed.
Thus adding to the litter problem, if it manages to come loose and a hinderenec to road traffic if they come into contact with them.
FWB
I think the conversation went something like this.
hello mr policeman, I live in paget and I have to pass those rather large signs everyday at the traffic lights.
I’ve lived here all my life and this never used to happen.
Shall I call the MP, because I think he sits in the other party.
Oh where is my Bermuda of old
Do they know what they doing to the value of the houses in my neighborhood
Does this mean I won’t see any PLP or OBA or any other government sign posted on any land as it is also an eye sore
Mercy, wasn’t it insane the amount of signs stuck all over the roundabouts, etc, last election…
So glad someone is finally making a fuss about this!!!! Every time I get to the T Street junction, I feel completely distracted by those huge posters! That is a frequent accident spot and no one needs more distractions in place! Get rid of those large posters everywhere. They’re nothing but an eyeso and a distraction to drivers.
‘Every time I get to the T Street junction, I feel completely distracted by those huge posters!’ lol well duh..isn’t that the point.
I wonder if the Americas Cup will have any issue with this law from 1911.
Get on with it and enforce they law by starting with taking them and dumping them in the trash . After that call the owners of the company’s and charge them with for doing it as they are where the buck stops!
No excepts for charities or Government messages as well.
Should be an act/law against over trees and bush growing out in the roads. Those signs are there to let people know they have an even then taken down when done. Surely there is something else they can worry about
The police (and government) have sunk themselves already with this statement….seriously they are enforcing a law which is dated 1911..i mean come on get with the times…
It was passed in 1911 and amended in 1989, by the PLP government.
These events are well covered on social media, posters or flyer somewhere in a business place and radio, Let’s be real Bermuda people will not miss an event because they never drove past a banner on a road side, seriouly, Thank BPS
A 1911 Act in 21st century Bermuda. When the oligarchy then was in full swing protecting its own interests preventing competition. Oh wait…..
That’s a bullcrap argument. In this day of social media where pretty much everyone is connected it’s probably less expensive to advertise electronically and reach more people than an ugly, out of place (for Bermuda) banner would be nailed to a wall. Also, have you seen the nails that they use? Only a matter of time until the rock starts to crumble underneath.
The banners aren’t only wasteful but they’re made from non recyclable material, so ultimately they get burned in the incinerator. Bit of a waste for 2 weeks (plus a week after the event) of advertising..
The reality is that advertising like that is out of place for Bermuda. There are many other countries where it would look totally normal, just not so much here. The reason the law hasn’t been updated speaks less to the oppressive nature of it but more to the foresight that they had realizing that not controlling it would lead to the island beauty being covered up by ads.
The 1911 Act was amended in 1989, by the PLP oligarchy.
The REAL problem with this issue is that the promoters refuse to take their banners down after the event. they have their money and now don’t give a shit. What are they trying to do? remind all pay going patrons that they and their event was awesome?
TAKE YOUR S*#* DOWN! YOU HAD NO PROBLEM PUTTING IT UP.
Fine should be $50 everyday it is up after the event!!
this has NOTHING to do with mp’s. IT’S CALLED “RESPECT”
Assign desigated, safe areas for advertising banners on a structured billboard. Have promoters pay a yearly or seasonal permit fee to advertise and then enforce a fine should they not be removed within a few days after the event. This will keep things organized, clear and more attractive.
There you go, however don’t leave it in the civil services hands to administer. They would have 3 times the number of people required losing money left right & center.
Put the spaces in the hands of a private administrator who pays Government an annual rate then subs time & space out. No more haphazard posters stuck up randomly wherever. A few key areas. Thats it.
Eyesore. Take them down.
Makes it look more like downtown Kingston than Bermuda. Take them down, keep them down. ‘Hardworking promoters’ can use social media. Do you really think anyone not using some form of social media would be going to these events? Same goes for church advertisements, political signs, etc- don’t let them go back up. Looks really cheap and tacky. Even the little signs advertising things like ‘diabetes month’ by Crow Lane, just enough. Nowadays there are so many other ways of getting the word out, and billboards are really obsolete. Might actually force someone to actually read the media to see what’s happening. And we wouldn’t want that now, would we?
I don’t see the problem in people promoting events, I don’t like all the business banners and signs we are starting to see get put up. Promotions go up then get taken down business ones just stay there n do look bad, at least tourists can get something out of the shows being promoted.
Hey wouldn’t that be something that new dopey 10% agree referendum would address?
Idk why people keep saying it’s been done for years because it hasn’t… you have to ask permission to put any poster then it seemed like people just ignored that and put more and more up…It’s many ways to get the word out without cluttering the little space we have…we forget the country is smaller than most neighborhoods anywhere else so getting the word out takes nothing… and when government posts poster’s for and election its every 3-4 years not every weekend… a good party in Bermuda a promoter can make a quarter of million and you trying to tell me they can’t afford to be more creative about how they advertised…and the fine is a slap on the wrist so as always bermudians have a voice about nothing…you want to put up a poster do it on your own property or get permission it’s that simple
Only like two comments on the fact this act is back in 1911… n no one has a problem a 100+ yrs later n they the ones that complain about not enough tourist or blah blah blah… u got to remember social media n other stuff came out way after billboards or posters. Thats like a promoters foundation. But if posters r being left up then thats another problem. Jus smh at some comments!
To the OBA – PLEASE enforce this law .
TO the People – PLEASE conform.
It (along with solar panels on our unique white Bermuda roofs) is desecrating our Island ! It makes me very sad to see traditions ‘thrown out the window’ — where is everyone’s pride in the wise decisions of our fore-fathers ?
I’d agree on enforcing the laws regarding large banners et al., but what’s wrong about solar panels? Anything that reduces reliance on Belco should be a good thing.
Not to be disrespectful, but solar panels do not actually ‘desecrate’ our roofs. They perform a necessary function, similar to collecting water. You have an option to buy water or to collect, conserve, and use it according to your needs. Same thing with electricity- you now have an option to buy it or to collect what you need. This is the same idea as the Bermuda roof, as there are other ways to collect or acquire water, but the roof and cistern is the most efficient. Solar panels on our roofs is exactly in the spirit of the traditional roof. I think that view is very much subjective, and very much your opinion, which you are allowed to express, but I respectfully disagree.
This is the biggest load of crap I’ve herd all week bps worrying bout posters get a life real talk. So I guess no banners for election time and Americas cup inna? #dummiesforreal
A law from the stone age. What is legal here in China? I’m sorry, my mistake, Bermuda. Can the BPS focus on the real crime like the handbag snatchers that they haven’t caught yet instead of some idiot who called in a bomb threat that happens on daily basis in other countries. Or some fools who put up posters and fail to take them down. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
You think that bomb threats happen on a daily basis in other countries? You don’t think that’s a serious crime?
Hookay then.
@Harry Buttle and others. Have you read this Act? I did on bermudalaws.com. There have been NO amendments SINCE 1911!! In over 100 years! If you read it it smacks of oligarchy stronghold. Eg Only businesses can advertise from their storefront etc. Who owned these stores in 1911?? So we have this type of language and culture YET want to attract the 21st centruy tourist. We can’t have it both ways. Many people do not rely on social media for advertising. And many promoters probably cannot afford expensive ad space in our one daily and most don’t own business property! I have learned of many an event for the first time reading these posters etc. while driving and I was glad of it. Why can’t the Act be revised to accommodate this current trend? Maybe the BTA can add some influence.
I see nothing wrong with tasteful signs like sidewalk menus for example yet this is prohibited. It would be convenient for a tourist if they are on a moped with swim wear and hestitate coming inside to see the menu. It’s arrogance to expect increased tourist numbers yet not look at the whole picture in advertising our product. Many tourists like to attend our local events as well and read these signs. It’s not always about our beaches. It’s this type of backward thinking which is why we are struggling with attracting visitors. We need to reinvent oursleves including this stupid 100+ year old Act which the Govt seem quite happy to criminalize people for in 2015! Unbeleivable!
I regret the typos. Haste makes waste.
$720.00 fine is damn ridiculous,why not $120.00 and why hasn’t anything been said all these years.
P.S. I wonder how many Americas Cup banners will be erected.
As someone points out above, the fines are $0 if you don’t break the law.
Why is this such a problem all of a sudden?