Video: MP Rabain On Govt Work Permit Numbers
After the Opposition asked in the House of Assembly how many work permits have been issued for motor mechanics, electricians, welders and landscape gardeners, MP Diallo Rabain said they were “totally shocked” that the Government has issued 217 permits since 2013 for these categories.
Speaking outside the House on Friday, Mr Rabain told Bernews, “We asked questions specifically on how many work permits have been issued for motor mechanics, electricians, welders and landscape gardeners.
“The specific reason for asking that question is these are categories that under the Progressive Labour Party were closed, and were made tougher to get work permits for.
“We were just totally shocked by the answers that this One Bermuda Alliance Government has issued 217 permits since 2013 for these categories, with a whopping 180 permits for landscape gardeners.
“What we need to do is get to the bottom of this. This is a Government that claims that they’re looking out for Bermudians and they’re protecting Bermudian jobs.
“But here we have jobs that can clearly be done by Bermudians, jobs that we have Bermudians in these fields that are currently unemployed, being filled by work permits and the Government needs to be taken to task of this. They need to answer to why they’ve started issuing so many work permits for these categories.”
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I think it goes the opposite way Diallo. If you restrict job categories by way of a certification, you are by default limiting the amount of Bermudians that would be eligible to apply, no?
“inna” you’re absolutely correct yet, what has been / is overlooked most of this stuff started when the Progressive Labour Party became Bermudas Government. Look at the farmers, (just because many are black they aren’t Bermudians) Who was it that had permitted them to be doing jobs Bermudians did / can still do? there are countless jobs given to West Indians that U’lot could’ve been and still can be doing. Point I wish to make,”turn the stones over” M.P Rabain there you’ll be surprise what’s revealed.
Outstanding MP Rabain. ..
You are Spot on
This is a real problem in Bermuda and more so ensuring JOBS for Bermudians. .
Keep speaking
So when his party was in power ans messed up this whole certification process and went real hush about. Now it a big deal. Talk about political points.
There’s No excuse for stupidity…Many of them in the Opposition Party, (Progessive Labour Party) are dreamers and are extremely wet behind their ears.” Sad I know, but so true
With reference to certification Bermuda needs a proper vetting department to vet all work permit applicants prior to them obtaining employment on the Island. In the Philippines for instance they have a place called Recto University were you can get any certificate that you desire. Nurse, nursing assistant, mechanic, electrician, welder, landscape gardener you name it. Is this why so many jobs in Bermuda are excessively filled by Filipinos? They even provide phony job references so that potential employers can verify their phony credentials. Of course this would come in handy just in case you need to prove that you have 3 to 5 years landscaping experience as required by all Portuguese landscaping companies in Bermuda. What a ridiculous requirement. The fraudulent document business is big business in Philippines.
Dear CDP,
Your statement sounds like you have verified this information and have first-hand knowledge of false certificate holders. Why not report them, so we can make use of your “SMART comment”.
Whether a worker’s certificate is real or not, the attitude towards work counts the most. You can also clearly see what a person can do sans certificate via work ethics and productivity.
You have mentioned, “many jobs in Bermuda are excessively filled by Filipinos”, have you ever thought that this number is proportion to the number of employers who I believe are SMART enough to hire capable workers.
I would like to kindly tweak your statement “many jobs in Bermuda are satisfactorily filled by many Filipinos”.
Mabuhay,
I have to disagree with CDP that many jobs are excessively filled by Filipinos. Certain job types are excessively filled by Filipinos. These are the jobs that any Bermudian could learn to do straight out of high school on the job in a matter of days. The others that take years of learned skills and experience are filled by foreign workers from other countries because they are capable. If a Bermudian agreed to work for the amount a Filipino worked for and agreed to dedicate every waking hour to the employer they would have the job the Filipino does.
Cheap indentured labor has nothing to do with work ethics and productivity. This is just a way of belittling yourself while belittling the local population.
Dear The Original Truth,
My statement was:
“Whether a worker’s certificate is real or not, the attitude towards work counts the most. You can also clearly see what a person can do sans certificate via work ethics and productivity.”
As you can see, I used the general word workers – sans nationality.
In this world of business, how you do your job defines who you are and not your job or race.
A nanny who dedicates her working time to her employer and does her best, is comparable to an account who spends the night reconciling.
If education is free in the Philippines or if the government has some type of educational support towards its people like how Bermuda does, a lot more Filipinos will be holding jobs from top to bottom just like Bermudians and other citizens.
We are all the same, its just a matter of perspective.
Don’t forget it is Bermudian Employers, not the Government, applying for these work permits. But I’m sure it’s politically favorable for you to attack the ruling Party and not those you want to vote for you in the next election.
It’s a government department that approves the permits. Sheisty employers will be sheisty employers and it’s the government department’s job to find these employers out and the minister’s job to make sure the department is doing their job. We can’t blame criminals for not being caught like the geico commercials say, “It’s what they do.” Government and their department need to do what they are supposed to do because we pay them TOO FRIGGIN MUCH ALREADY for doing jack all. PLP made the mess but OBA has been elected to fix it not just collect their paycheck.
Give the people who need to do their jobs some legal teeth and it will get done.
Right now you have politicians who are disillusioned and just enjoying the prestige and pay along with immigration workers who are interested in a paycheck and looking good at work.
Ever see how they dress?
They’d never catch me on a job site if I was working illegally in their high heel shoes and fancy clothes.
Mr. Rabian,
If you see a void and opportunity take advantage of it. If there are hundreds of reliable men and women that are seeking employment as landscapers HIRE THEM, make lots of money, grow your company and become an example to employers and employees.
I registered as an employer at the job fair and hired three Bermudians. All three were very nice and eager. The first two lasted less than two weeks because they “found something better” and the other just stopped showing up shortly thereafter. Do I blame them, no of course not. I wish I didn’t have to work in the hot sun all day. However, what I need in my business is responsible and reliable and honest people. I don’t want to be hiring people and having them quit before their insurance card comes in the mail.
Rabian, put up 0 or shut up. I don’t need no politician telling me how it is and how it should be.
@ Awesome,
Right on all points. Especially the put up or shut up comment!!!!!!!
I’d like a comparison. How many permits were issued for these categories in, say, 2009-2012?
Guarantee you’ll be absolutely shocked at the number…..but thats a number you’ll never see. Thats the definition of transparency, PLP style !!
These aren’t ‘closed category’ jobs at all.
https://www.gov.bm/job-categories-work-permits
The vast majority of these 217 were related to landscapers. Employing Bermudians in this field has always been a challenge and it continues to be so.
In 2011 Mr. Derrick Burgess acknowledged this fact by stating, “We’ve had a lot of Bermudians who have not wanted to do this type of job.”
Back then there was talk by the Government of setting up a training scheme for locals to entice them into the field.
Mr. Dale Butler was quoted as stating, “It’s obvious Government had to act as the landscape companies were saying ‘where are these Bermudian people?’ There has to be sufficient people available to meet the need. “It’s the whole problem of work ethics that needs to be fixed. Work is not seen as work anymore, it’s seen as socialising. Work is seen as Disney World where you chat [about] all the wonderful things you did at the weekend.”
Did this program ever come to be and if so, what are the numbers of enrollees?
There was even a work permit moratorium placed on landscaping permits under the previous Government which was scrapped not too long later as it was obvious that locals weren’t running to these jobs in droves despite some being unemployed.
So, sorry Mr. Rabain this issue is long-standing issue which couldn’t be resolved with tour Party’s moratoriums or training schemes (if they actually happened).
Dale Butler was and still is full of it. He’s one of the main culprits. PLP issued the most work permits ever issued in the history of Bermuda.
OBA is not any better than PLP as they have followed suite. Fahy has even supported Butler’s initiatives to keep his friends and family employed over Bermudians.
You’re right LiarLiar those categories aren’t closed but cashier and retail sales are but OBA has allowed the renewal of permits for open categories who are actually working in these closed categories despite reports that they are not working in the specified category of their permit.
Both parties are a sham and need to become defunct. We need UK back in control of our island as the issues of party politics stated decades ago when UK gave up control to parties.
Why is it that Dale Butler and Rodney Smith refuse to weigh in with regards to that Recto University place in the Philippines? Those guys credibility is shot because if it was a Bermudian doing that they would be all over it. What a joke.
The answer is simple. Putting foreign friends and family first.
The real question is why did Ewart allow his party member hook up their non Bermudian friends and family while Bermudians continued to lose their jobs to them. Just goes to show that the Doc really wasn’t about helping his fellow Bermudians and still isn’t or he would have came clean by now.
Correction to my third paragraph. I checked and you are wrong LiarLiar and so am I about those permits being open. They are listed as closed positions which is shocking to me knowing the huge amount of permit workers in them. If the government wants it’s citizens to abide by the laws they need to lead by example and have their immigration department hold up the laws.
your comment has been repeated over and over again but no-one listens.
it simply isn’t a job that Bermudians want to make a career out of and basic business sense is that if you are off work more frequently than on – landscaping customers will not have it so you hire people who can consistently work.
sometimes this equates to foreigners but that’s business.
employers are less forgiving nowadays as the cost of running a business and the profit margin are closer than ever before and in order to make any money – you can’t NOT have workers plain and simple.
customers don’t care that your worker didn’t come to work today so i can’t make it
foreigners can work all hours – their family is at home in a foreign country, so no PTA meetings, no doctor’s visits, no birthday parties, no “nothing” so they can work work work
business owners can enjoy making a small profit with foreign workers who have a different motivation than their Bermudian counterparts and once you make a BMD versus your local currency – you are making good money and paying minimal rent in some cases right back to their boss!!
Rabain shouldn’t be surprised – obviously he is out of touch with reality.
Bermudian companies are hiring not foreign companies
why don’t WE Bermudians pool together and generate our own economy instead of b******* and moaning all the time
I”m sure that these foreign workers with family in another country would like to be at their childrens’ birthday parties, their PTA meetings and I’m fairly sure they visit doctors. They are working to aim to provide a better life for their families, just as we too would be.
Maybe some but there are those who could care less because they were raised to believe money is more important than family.
Either way this is beside the point since we only have 4 official refugees in Bermuda and they are not them. Governments are supposed to look after the well being of their citizens above all else. A secure society is a happy and productive society. Not looking after your own breeds animosity and chaos which is what we’ve experienced for the last 19 years. Both parties choose to misdirect it so to lay blame elsewhere while both have had the opportunity to fix it but instead focus on their own agendas while it has festered.
I agree but the point is that many foreign workers are here WITHOUT their families and have one less event that competes with their hours spent on the job.
In the absence of PTA mtgs , doctors visits etc. more time can he spent at work in theory.
For the classes of occupations that the MP is specifically referring to, there are the vast majority who are ‘sans la familia’
How many of the young men sent to Atlantic City for drywall training were actually employed, are still employed or are continuing to look for employment?
Simple answer the Bermudians do not apply for these positions our do not want to work for the wage that is offered for the particular trade. As said under the plp there was a hold on some permits as Bermudians were to come first before seeking overseas workers to fill these positions. You cannot hold a business ransom because no locals apply for the position or do not have the qualifications that are necessary that is crazy, It policies like this that got the PLP in trouble and why they lost their way in the election.
There has never been any factual data collected to confirm that Bermudians do not apply for these positions. You are going on hearsay. These jobs bring in good earnings without having to have some sort of post secondary degree. Many underemployed work odd jobs that are in these fields because they were laid off from their full time one while permit workers get the full time jobs.
No its facts I am a business owner I know first hand
An individual’s statement under a false name does not make a fact. For all we know you may be a permit worker trying to sway opinion. All I am saying is that there isn’t any factual data collected which is a fact because it isn’t collected regardless who the fact comes from.
@ The Original Truth,
“An individual’s statement under a false name does not make a fact”.
Does that also apply to individual’s who make a statement under a false name such as yourself who support Mr. Rabains comments or is that only for those individuals who disagree like Doggystyle???
As stated there isn’t any factual data collected which is a FACT because it isn’t collected regardless who the fact comes from. The fact is there are over 180 permits for a position that is set as closed. I don’t support everything Mr. Rabain says but a fact is a fact which supports itself.
That’s not the point I was making now was it? You said “An individual’s statement under a false name does not make a fact”. You, the person you responded to are posting under a false name, so with that logic we shouldn’t believe anything one posts as such.
Every work permit application is a log of factual data as I must include information on who if anyone applied and what the reason was for not hiring.
It’s not a log of factual data because not all employers stick with the facts when they fill out a work permit application.
Factual data would be something collected by the government directly from citizens applying for jobs. They do this in North America but not here.
@ The Original Truth,
Not all employees stick to the facts either.
I had an employer call me about a reference that I was supposed to have given to an former employee. Funny thing is I had fired the employee about two years previously and had never given him a reference.
I had given him a letter for the purposes of opening a bank account telling them that he was an employee of my company. He had someone copy and change it saying he was a model employee and had worked for me for four years. Well he wasn’t a model employee, which is why he was let go and only lasted a few months.
On top of it he recently called me (last week) asking for work and also asked me to give him a good reference to a potential employer who was supposed to call me the next day. You gotta shake your head at that one right???? lol
I never stated that all employees stick to the facts. That’s beside the point that immigration should just take an employers word for the truth. Employee nor employer should be given the benefit of the doubt that’s just the way it should be and that’s why the employer called you for a reference. This doesn’t mean that all employees and employers are dishonest but there are procedures that should be followed always to ensure there isn’t a bias.
@ Truth….
No you didn’t say that but you didn’t mention the other side of the coin either, I just pointed it out.
I agree that Immigration should have or follow procedures and if they don’t exist then implement them. I put the respondents full name, address, & all contact information on reply’s to the dept. Do they follow up with the individuals???? I doubt it. But they should.
In order to apply for work permits for foreigners you must be able to prove no Bermudian qualified applied for the job…. you know how many foreigners BAC has to hire to work because Bermudians can’t even do plumbing, welding and HVAC work… we have ourselves to blame…. our island is full of worthless workers who are known for their laziness and apathy
Don’t let your prejudice get in the way of truth now.
BTW an employer does not have to prove no Bermudian qualified or applied for the job. All an employer has to do is state that no one qualified or applied and immigration simply takes their word. In Canada they used to do it this way until they found that many employers were not being honest. Now Canadian immigration has their own Labour Market Impact Assessment to guarantee the facts. We need to do the same.
Mr Rabain is entirely correct.
What he is saying is that to hire work permit holders for these positions goes outside of the law. the law stipulates that for these positions, work permits should not be granted.
If the OBA feels that work permits should be granted, then they need to change the law to allow for this, but at this moment they are acting outside of the law.
Actually, in what way does the law forbid these work permits being granted? Both you and Mr Rabain have asserted this without making a positive case.
The Bermuda Government has ruled that these positions are closed to work permit holders. When a government has set a rule another name for that action is that they have set a law. The rule/law is on Bermuda government’s site. By law these positions are closed meaning quite simply YOU CAN NOT GRANT A PERMIT IN THAT POSITION. The problem I believe is that employers make up bogus titles to create new positions to skirt around the law like lawn technician instead of landscaper. This is the fault of governments passed and present for not being comprehensive enough to have definitions for what these positions entail not just the name of the position. If they had definitions then even if a bogus title was created if the tasks of the title still fall under the same definition as the closed position the permit should not be granted.
@ The Truth …,
Oh yes I forgot to mention, landscapers are in the ‘Restricted Category’ as such persons can be hired from overseas. But again, what would I know as an employer who owns and runs a landscaping company, who has a few staff members from overseas and seeing as the paperwork from the dept of immigration confirms it.
But seeing as I’m writing under an alias and according to you it definitely can’t be factual so what would I know. Of course your experience and opinion which is likely that of someone who doesn’t own a business and has no idea what they are talking about clearly trumps mine.
You are incorrect.
Because?????
Because it is not illegal to hire people on permits for these positions.
There shouldn’t be any people on permits for these positions because they are CLOSED to permits. If a permit worker is hired they should be hired for and only for the permit under an open job type. Hiring a person under a permit for an open job type and having them work in a closed position is illegal.
I know an employer who has a permit worker hired under the open permit of accountant and has them working under the closed position of salesperson and shop clerk. This employer is breaking the law. Further more they have them under a permit apply through their one business and have them working in shifts for their other business as well. For this they are committing another criminal act.
Now you are changing your premise.
I“M SORRY,,WHAT??? Do both you and Rabain sit down and come up with this complete gobledegoop??? Please explain your outside the law crap!!!
The law states the position is closed so to have a permit worker in that position is outside the law. It’s that simple.
No, it’s not. You need to read further and provide full information. You and Mr. Rabain are being lazy or purposefully misleading. Which is it?
PLP are turning more and more slimey by the day. They are scraping the bottom of he barrel in their attempts at trying to make the OBA look bad or arrogant (neither being true).
they seem to be on a campaign of just say stuff and Bermudians will believe it…when you lift the lid on these statements you soon discover that it was the PLP who apparently issued extortionate amounts of work permits in these categories. It was the PLP who apparently introduced a barrier to having Bermudians employed…Makes me so angry that they try and spin things. It’s like they are saying Bermudians are too stupid to understand so they can say what they want…. It’s a disgrace.
Mr. Rabain,
You really have no clue as to how a private company needs to work. In Bermuda and everywhere else in the world a business is not a baby sitter. Especially in Landscaping you have a customer that wants ajob well done and done quickly at the lowest cost, he/she does not want to look out the window to see the person you are paying, sitting on the ground, smoking, drinking or yacking on the phone or showing up 1/2 hour late. When the PLP was in power they should have instilled into the Bermudian that there is a stong work ethic that needs to be learned.
Get your head out of your pompas a– and try to make Bermuda and it’s people better than they are.
Bobby Jones that is typical of someone who has been successfully brainwashed, programmed and indoctrinated because what you are really saying is Bermudians are lazy. But the slave master said the same thing and they are still saying it today. After all employment is built on the same concept as slavery. We are the only group of people who have been stereotyped in a negative manner. It is obvious you do not know life and death is in the power of the tongue.
Yes but the customers are ok with the lazy bosses paying the workers as low as 25% of what they charge them out for and sitting around counting all the money. I personally watched a guest worker landscaping next door stand up staring into my yard for 10 mins straight while the other indentured laborers took up the slack, and that wasn’t a one-off, they are human too, it’s just if they steal or are drunkards or don’t work , they are quietly replaced with another foreigner and the public is none the wiser. Bermudians mess up they are used as leverage to get work permits, in fact some employers will knowingly hire drug addled locals with a history of work issues, a few in succession to “prove” their point.
Second paragraph of the above speaks volumes.
Think about it then reply.
Shalom.
tell em its “the man” and continue to secure your voting base.
This has been a problem for a long time but no party re serious enough and the head of Horticulture Advisory does not seem to be doingmuch to help trul the [osition has been held for too long. Immigration WOrkforce Development need to do more also Bermudians need to get educated because companies will not take you not quailfied and I dont mean doing a little fly by night course that keeps you out of court.
We don’t like the hot sun ,long hours real physical work, evening work and early mornings landscaping does not suffer fools gladly ✌
Shocked…. utterly shocked…
I know alot of blacks that started businesses employing locals only until they almost went bankrupt then hired foreign workers and became prestigious once again…ie; construction…landscaping…tiling etc. ask them their opinions of the average local workforce.
Face the facts…Bermuda WAS another world.
Surely overindulgence wasn’t the reason they almost went bankrupt? Fancy car, house, trips, etc. living beyond the means. Now they have cheap labor and they can have all the luxuries at the expense of others.
Well said Bobby Jones. My thoughts for some time. Could not have said the last sentence better myself. The grandstanding of this gentleman is way over the top. Get off your high horse Mr Rabain and stop the posturing. It all starts with the bow tie.
Have you ever actually spoken with a Bermudian landscape business owner and got their views on the work ethic in the local landscaping job market? Someone needs to burst your inflated ego.
It should not take much to train a person to be a landscaper or a waiter/kitchen porter.
The hard part is teaching Bermudians to (A)show up to work and (B) Work!
And before you holier than thou-ers out there over salt your codfish cakes don’t even respond.
You know its true !
I’m Bermudian and have employed Bermudians over the last 30 years and the two bigest issues are reliability and work ethic. If Employers could get that, everyone would have a job!
There are lots of hard working Bermudians out there and because there are thousands out there and because of their hard work they generally get other jobs. Wall sitters deserve what they get!
Here’s something MP.Rolfe Commissiong suggested it’s about paying overtime when there isn’t funds available:-(
“M.P.Rolfe Commissiong has suggested that the Employment Act needs to be amended so that employers are obliged to pay overtime rates to employees working in excess of 40 hours a week” Dah?
If Rabid put as much energy into cutting his grass as he does talking bull his lawn would be immaculate. Probably uses a landscaping service!!
First let me point out the it was the OBA the made Land Gardner require Certification. Did they do that because they saw that no one wanted to work in teh field? Anyway, I digress….
In 2009, national certification was introduced for Electricians, Motor Mechanics and Welders. In 2014 the OBA added Landscape Gardeners. The certification was developed by persons within these various fields considered “experts” and Industry partners. This was done so when the final qualification was developed, it was exactly what employers in Bermuda were looking for. This also allowed the then Labour and Training Department to develop training programs and apprentice schemes with the ability to be Nationally Certified as the final goal. The legislation also allowed for this requirement to be bypassed if (a) the Bermudian worker was in a legitimate training program with an employer that was leading to certification (b) an applicant for a work permit already possesses a certification that was equivalent to the required certification. Other than that, there was a requirement for any permit approved, the recipient was required to be Nationally Certified within a month of arriving.
Within my questions to the Minister, I specifically asked how many work permit were issued in these fields since 2013 and how many permits holders have either attained National Certification or presented a certification to allow them to be exempt. The answer to that question was NONE. So based on that reply, by the laws we currently have in place, all of these 217 permits issued in these fields are essentially working illegally. The fault here lies on the employers and the Government. There is no way a permit should be allowed to be issued, if this legal requirement has not been satisfied.
Some have asked how does this policy protect Bermudian jobs or why isn’t this a barrier to anyone breaking into the field. First of all, it protects jobs because if there is a certification, this protects the salary of the position to a degree. It is very difficult to get a person qualified to a professional level, to take basically apprentice type of pay. This helps the local worker because now there is standard to work towards and the knowledge that there will be a more level playing field when competing with a permit worker. Secondly, this encourages employers to develop decent training programs in conjunction with the National Training Board which will lead to a certification. The Training program is hammered out with a proper apprentice contract and in most cases is (was) subsidized by the NTB. These contracts would contain all the necessary things needed by both employee and employer to ensure the employee reached certification at the end of the contract. Requirements for community services, schooling, etc were all part of the contract.
Also, there is a scheme in place (since the mid 2000s) that allows for an employer to file their training program with NTB and the Tax Commissioner and not have to pay payroll tax for any trainee employee. Unlike the OBA now expired scheme of payroll tax exemption for new hires, the training route doesn’t charge the employee payroll tax either.
All of these things are put in place to protect and promote the hiring of Bermudians. Despite these things in place, employers still go out these way to obtain work permit and it is mostly based on bottom line as currently is ti far cheaper to hire a permit worker than a Bermudian based on current laws. We have a ways to go to level the playing field completely and rest assured I will champion for that until it happens.
Diallo V. S. Rabain, JP, MP
Quick question – does the JP stand for Justice of the Peace?
Why is the PLP not drumming the fact that there are over 80 reports of work permit violations that have not been investigated Diallo? Your leader asked the question of how many and got the answer but has left it at that. I didn’t even hear about it in the news and only found out by reading the parliamentary questions and answers on government’s site. This is a big part of the reason why it all goes on because it’s not investigated. I submitted information more than once over three years detailing how an employer has an permit worker working a closed position. The worker’s permit has been passed over and over again without them or their employer being investigated. I gave in all the information and proof needed and still they get their permit approved while the employer is not even keeping one Bermudian on as full time.
Mr.Diallo V. S. Raban, JP, MP you and your party are clueless matter of fact all you politicians are clueless to real facts in every day Bermuda sitting up on the hill talking about nothing but how to rip each other apart and play games and be politically divided. Today for example whent to a job site to make my site visit walked in all the foreign workers are working and the Bermudian is still a sleep I mean fast asleep I was there for an hour and me and my local employee had a bet that he will be still asleep before we left looked around the corner and BINGO there he was still F—-k ing sleeping while everyone else is working you tell me what wrong with this picture. The guest worker said to me that the guy sleeping works better when he is asleep and laughed. This is reality and not a lie no more than 2 hours ago.
You have ONE local worker on a site where the rest are permit workers. Now you want to spread prejudice by judging the rest of the local population in comparison to ONE local. How is this even happening when immigration is not supposed to be issuing permits to a company that has an unbalance like yours.
If you had read the employment act you would know that you should be writing the local worker up for sleeping on the job. Three right ups and you have the right to fire them. Although I would suggest that you take a few grammar classes before doing so in order not look as ignorant as you are. Your prejudice statement actually proves Diallo’s point.