CURB To Present At White Privilege Conference
Members of Citizens Uprooting Racism in Bermuda [CURB] will be attending the 12th annual White Privilege Conference [WPC], to be held at the Sheraton Bloomfield Hotel in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Members of the Advocacy Working Group, Cordell Riley and Lynne Winfield, have been invited to present a workshop titled “This Land is Whose Land? Gaining Economic Citizenship in Paradise.”
A CURB spokesperson said, “The workshop, which is in line with the overall conference theme of “This Land is Whose Land?” will focus on the historical development of White affirmative action in Bermuda since settlement in 1609, and the legal restrictions put into place to prevent Black economic empowerment.”
“Furthermore, while some progress in economic development by Blacks has occurred, the workshop will reveal that the gulf between Bermuda’s two dominant races remains wide, and the steps that are being taken to close the gap.”
The conference, hosted by the Minnesota Justice Collaborative and the WPC National Planning Team, will host more than 2,000 delegates will participate in 150 workshops. Apart from Bermuda, attendees will travel to the WPC from 39 states, Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom.
Also attending from Bermuda are CURB members Michelle Dismont-Frazzoni, Hashim Estwick, Dr. Eva Hodgson and Cindy Steede-Williams.
Attendees have been advised by conference organisers to take all necessary security precautions as conference details have shown up on a White supremacist site. Organisers are monitoring the discussion.
For more information on the conference, visit Whiteprivilegeconference.com
The wider Black community still isn’t better off economically…. only the few black elite politicians who’ve made it off the backs of those they claim to humbly serve. Think any of your elected MPs at present are worrying about home foreclosures, getting their power turned off, or putting food on the table?
Blacks became the majority demographic in Bermuda in the mid 1800s whilst the present black population in the USA is only 12.5% of the total population. Maybe someone can help me understand what exactly is holding Bermudian blacks back…is there some invisible force? Last time I checked there was only 1 white MP in the current PLP cabinet. Is the elite black community purposely shunning lower-class citizens? Are they ashamed of them? They have had 12 years as a ruling black party to bring this issue into the light and resolve some of the challenges. What exactly are people’s demands? Can a white person not struggle? Are Portuguese people immune to prejudice?
If we haven’t resolved racial inequality yet we never will. Or is racial equality about the forcing the white man to struggle to which I say: Free Kosovo.
I wish I can get me some of that white privilege…
When I do finally get my hands on some of that “good stuff” hopefully my mother, sibling and I can finally afford a house in our own country and maybe we can use our whiteness to get my mom’s job back that she just lost due to the economy.
You might want to look up what White Privilege actually is…
Enlighten me…
a two second Google search (is that really so hard?) come up with these as the first two links…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
It’s not about white people owning houses and being rich and getting jobs.
It’s about how, societally, it’s a little easier for these things to happen…
among MANY other things.
Yeah you’re right.
All white people have had it and will continue to have it easy. And if you think that by assuming that all whites have had it easy all their lives and that we all achieve what we achieve through underhanded tactics then you are constantly going to run against a brickwall in this conversation.
If it wasn’t for me being white I would have never achieved anything and I wouldn’t have been able to own anything. Oh wait a minute I don’t. For some damn reason the banks won’t offer me a special “white privilege” interest rate so that I can qualify for a mortgage in my own island and thus I am stuck throwing my $$$ away on astronomical rents (just like black Bermudians do every month) each month to a black Bermudian, ironically enough who owns multiple properties.
My mother lost her job, as mentioned, and yet she still can’t find work and guess what the rent still needs to be paid. So this assumption that all whites do not suffer is bullsh*t. My mother rasied her children by herself and had to work mutiple jobs to pay the rent, for our education and all other living expenses. Maybe your white self isn’t, but don’t you try and speak for all. Because there are many white people that have felt and are feeling the hurt (economically) to this day.
And on top of that you can take your condescending ass comments (i.e. is that so hard?) back to BIAW. You are not as smart as you try to portray my friend and honsetly you come across as a whiny little bitch sometimes to tell you the truth.
Now go and break down every sentence that I have written and analyze it and cry about how I didn’t address something or the other.
My whole point is that the more that you and others continue to portray this image that ALL whites had it easy and never once have struggled to achieve and obtain the basic necessities of life then you will come up against people such as myself.
All you are doing is belittling the struggles that some white people have endured due to their rank in social/class heirarchy.
It is no different then a black person saying you have no idea until you walk in my shoes. Well that premise goes also applies to my family and many other white/Portuguese families in Bermuda that didn’t have the benefit of being related and/or part of the 40 Thieves set-up. And we don’t have the ability (or skin color) to join up with the newest brand of Bermuda’s 40 Thieves.
So keep on belittling people’s achievements through such generalizations and stereotypes. All it will do is result in individuals, such as myself, disregarding your arguments, the same way some disregard others life experiences simply due to the color of their skin.
Not even a LITTLE bit what I said. Not even a little.
You’ve made up an entire conversation that didn’t happen.
The personal attacks and demands that I “take your condescending ass comments (i.e. is that so hard?) back to BIAW.” were really nice, too.
Look. I get that you’re pissed at the situation you’re in now.
You don’t have to lash out at me because of it. I didn’t do anything to you.
You were (and are) ranting about something that you OBVIOUSLY are basing your opinion on assumptions you have made and not on the ACTUAL thing that the discussion is about.
Sorry if me pointing that out set you off. My bad for trying to have a conversation.
(And, I was being serious. Is it really THAT hard to go to Google and look it up yourself before going off on a tear about something you don’t really get?)
Alright well start the conversation.
And yes your little blurb was condescending…
What conversation were you trying to have? You tell me in one sentence that I do not know hat I am talking about. I tell you enlighten me and you provide links to someone else’s view on the subject without stating your case and/or beliefs and you believe that constitutes conversation to you?
I lay out in several posts my argument that such a generalization is inherently wrong (as is all stereotypes and generalizations) and you come back with that drivel about not having a conversation. Just becomes someone doesn’t submit to your argument doesn’t mean they are not having a conversation. Actually that is a conversation it most people’s eyes.
What is a conversation to you?
PS: My views on your condescending tone remain the same
Well, the evidence shows that you DON’T know what you’re talking about!
You’ve shown time and again that you DON’T understand what people are talking about when they use the term “White Privilege”.
And, to be honest, based on the fact that YOU are the one making personal attacks, I could care less about your views on my tone.
At least I’m only being condescending! YOU are the one namecalling! Which is better?
“(And, I was being serious. Is it really THAT hard to go to Google and look it up yourself before going off on a tear about something you don’t really get?)”
Just because I don’t agree with your argument, doesn’t mean that I don’t really get it. It seems that contradicting arguments for you are unacceptable and that these dissenters defintely just don’t get it.
I guess that is the superior attitude that so many speak of. Carry on oh enlightened one…
If you HAD an argument, you’d have a point.
Here’s the thing. I’ve looked up what it means. I’ve had many, many discussions about it.
Based on your initial post, you have no idea what the term really means.
So, yes. In this instance, my knowledge of the subject IS superior to yours.
(The ad populum attack of “that so many speak of” on top of the ad hominem is just plain weak.)
Oh and I just read tour Wikipedia link…
I have no monetary inheritance coming my way due to my aforementioned single parent upbringing.
I have no real estate inheritance coming my way due to my aforementioned single parent upbringing.
As mentioned BDA banks do not have a special “white privilege” interest rate which would allow me to procure my own property and start my own wealth accumulation.
And I am not the only white/Portuguese Bermudian family in this situation.
So according to your links the whole premise of white privilege is the ability of whites to get a “head start” in life by simply acquiring unearned wealth via their parents/ancestors.
In cases such as mine (where I am to receive NOTHING from my parent and thus unable to gain and perpetuate the wealth accumulation which the whole white privilege arguments seems to stem from) what would be the argument? Because I simply do not have these advantages/perks coming my way.
Unfortunately I have to work and save my $$$ in order to achieve such benefits. Unless you can point me in a direction of a house in BDA that costs less than $300k, because that is what each and every bank told me is what I eligible for in pre-approved financing.
Nope. You’re wrong again.
Again, you are reading what you want to read and ignoring anything else, then making stuff up to suit the position that you’ve decided on, based on anger.
And again, I apologize for setting you off. I thought you were interested in the topic. You obviously want to whinge and moan about how bad you got it.
Sorry for misreading.
Ahh there you go.
I read your articles and I stated my position as to why I believe that such a blanket stereotype cannot be applied to each and every white person.
So show me that my argument is wrong…
When did anyone apply the stereotype to each and every white person?
You’re making stuff up again!
Your argument, however, is wrong because you are basing it on a definition of the topic that you made up in your head and not the actual definition.
I wrote this earlier, down the thread and I’m going to ask you now:
Can you, after honestly looking at it, say that there aren’t more challenges in life for black folks than there are for white folks?
Do you honestly think that we are all on the same page and that there is absolute equality between the races?
If the answer is no, then there, by definition, HAS to be white privilege.
“When did anyone apply the stereotype to each and every white person?
You’re making stuff up again!”
“If the answer is no, then there, by definition, HAS to be white privilege.”
Bbbbuutttt you said you weren’t stereotyping all white people. Make up your mind as your two posts seem to be quite contradictory.
I am not mad about “how bad I got it.” Because I live in Bermuda, have a job and still am able to eat everyday. So I have no reason to be mad. I was proving my point that not all white Bermudians live in mansions and are destined to inherit $$$ from their parents.
I get mad when generalizations and stereotypes get involved in racial discussions. Some white people, and deservedly so, have been ostracized for stereotyping all black folks into one sweeping generalization. But when the shoe is on the other foot ALL white people are evil and part of the “system.” That’s what gets me mad. Both mindsets are equallly bad and get me equally mad.
Actually in the end it is way more of a class issue than a race issue.
Of course there remains gaps between some whites and some blacks in regards to economic standing. These, to me, are due to historical wrongs and not some grand evil master plan by whites who seek to oppress their black counterparts. At least I have never heard of any such talk from any white person I know. Maybe you hang out in different crowds?
Oh, so you just want to rant…
Gotcha.
You shoulda said. I wouldn’t have tried to engage.
“These, to me, are due to historical wrongs and not some grand evil master plan by whites who seek to oppress their black counterparts”
NO ONE SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT! You’re making stuff up again!
NO ONE has said there’s an evil master plan by whites! Not one person, when talking about white privilege!
The historical wrongs and the gaps between the races are EXACTLY what it means.
You’re fighting against an argument that no one is making!
Bermuda does not exist in a vaccuum. The global socioeconmic models systematically operates largely to the exclusion of non-whites. While we might like to think of ourselves as existing in some sort of other world, the reality is that there is systematically a higher value that is placed on ‘whiteness’.
Whilst I would agree that the black elite has become ‘the establishment’ in Bermuda (to the exclusion of a large segment of the black community at large), it will take generations before we begin to see the effects of a move towards equality – less educational opportunities, which inevitably leads to lower paying jobs and a quality of life that is lower…
There are inherent barriers to entry that perpetuate cycles of dysfunction and maintain the status quo. There has to be a meeting of the minds as far as both blacks and whites go – one in which black people refuse to see themselves as victims and perservere in spite of these barriers and whites agree to acknowledge this inherent bias in the system and committment to assist in dismantling it.
I still see this as a have money and don’t have money issue.
LOL
The Public Education system needs help, Children born without dedicated parents who cannot afford to raise kids properly is a big issue. The PLP need to address the social problems in some parts of the Black Community at present. Teenagers shooting each other does not send a good message about the future of young black people. The opportunities are there, the question is do young people really want to get ahead? There has to be a strong educational background, a high degree of morality and work ethic in place to perform in high paying jobs anywhere in the world. In recent times these items have been lacking from Bermuda’s work force in General. It does not help when the Government fails to lead by example either in dealing with Public Transport strikes and also Government’s own internal behavior of recent times.
The biggest leg up you can receive is a good education. White privilege largely still exists because white children have been privately educated more than any other demographic. This ensures a more certain path to success later on in life. The question is how do we change that? It has to start from the family unit, which in Bermuda is lacking for alot of these young people, and follow on through the education system. We need more mentors and a stronger school system to show young people what can be done when you are dedicated to getting ahead in life.
I agree that ensuring quality education for all is the first step towards ‘leveling the playing field’. That is the key to dismantling the existing socioeconomic system…
So as it costs more for Government school per person what if that money went instead to private schools to take students in other words the taxes Government uses to have the public school system go to subsidizing students. I do realize that a certain standard would most likely need to be met as private schools have certain academic / character standards. The curriculum, however might not be Bermuda enough for some how this would work for a win win for every one not sure yet.
LOL I know the suggestion is vague it was just a thought. I still think this is a money issue as anyone who can afford the Private School education and as stated earlier “This ensures a more certain path to success later on in life.” When I thought all this time “White Privilege” ie being white was what got the job as far as the arguments went on the topic and had little to do to education.
The Struggle you can’t be serious.
Yes I think he is.
LOL
Two sentences between the 2 of you doesn’t provide any dialogue so my position stands until you can find a way to discount my points of view.
“you can’t be serious’
“I think he is”
You two can’t be serious?
Dude I agree with you Nicole was asking if you were being serious I stated you were. What’s the problem?
LOL
If anyone completes high school, maintains continuous employment for the first 5 years after leaving school, avoids having children until married, and avoids committing crime, they will do well in life.
“avoids having children until married”
I don’t think this is to bad some times its the motivator.
LOL
crazy beat me to it .
‘White priviledge’…. wish I had some too …
and yet there is still a disparity, even if they do all these things…
Could foreign influence be a factor as I’m sure most other countries still have larger scale racial issues. Remember Elvis most IB CEOs and HR people aren’t Bermudian are they. This perpetuates the Bermudian “White Privilege” stigma and is used by some people (not naming anyone here) to make things look as if Bermuda’s racial problem is worse then it really is.
LOL
It’s a much bigger thing than just the CEOs and HR people, so to simplify like that is disingenuous.
Having said that, the way folks like Mr. Commissiong and Sen. Furbert have used it in the past is NOT what the Theory of White Privilege is all about.
“It’s a much bigger thing than just the CEOs and HR people, so to simplify like that is disingenuous.”
So elaborate? You and others always come on here and say we shouldn’t talk about something that you/they supposedly know so much more about, but then fail to back up your argument.
So…
I’ve never said anything even remotely like that. Ever. Not once.
Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t done.
You did!!!
You stated that LOL was being disingenous, but will not provide the evidence to prove your accusation.
You are exactly what you argue against…funny sh*t
Sorry… Maybe I wasn’t clear enough…
When did I “…come on here and say we shouldn’t talk about something that you/they supposedly know so much more about, but then fail to back up your argument.”
Saying that simplifying the arguments to CEOs and HR people to prove your point is disingenuous is NOT telling people they shouldn’t talk about it because I know more about it.
I’ve NEVER said that people shouldn’t talk about something. Just that they should educate themselves about it.
AND, I made no accusations!
As for “evidence”, there are COUNTLESS threads on various local sites regarding White Privilege in Bermuda, as well as a host of them regarding the concept in general.
I don’t understand why you are demanding that I educate you on something that YOU were pontificating on.
YOU were the one with the initial position (based on your posts, that there’s no such thing as White Privilege), why am I the one that is expected to prove it.
YOU haven’t backed up your initial position, yet I’m the one who’s in the wrong? Even though I HAVE backed it up with provided links… links that you obviously didn’t read thoroughly.
So… who is it that isn’t backing up their stuff?
“As for “evidence”, there are COUNTLESS threads on various local sites regarding White Privilege in Bermuda, as well as a host of them regarding the concept in general.”
Any links?
Do your own research.
Any links I put up will be skimmed for material to cherry pick, as you’ve shown is your wont.
Elvis you did say my opinion was disingenous. I think I see what you mean by that however it was not intentionally meant to be.
LOL
I know I did. But I never, and have never, said that people “shouldn’t talk about something that you/they supposedly know so much more about”…
That’s something “Tired” made up.
Sorry, this just popped into my head…
I didn’t say that your opinion was disingenuous. Just that to restrict it to CEOs and HR people was.
Sorry if I wasn’t as clear on that as I could be.
I DID agree with you that the phrase HAS been misused by various people “to make things look as if Bermuda’s racial problem is worse then it really is.”
That’s kind of my whole point on this thread.
There’s a tonne of misinformation and assumption out there about what it’s all about.
For me, it opened my eyes about the advantages that I PERSONALLY have because of my race, my family background and the advantages that they had in the past.
The advantages that I have are not the same as the advantages you have or that anyone else has, which it’s so difficult to explain, especially when it’s so easy to be defensive and say “Well, that one specific thing there doesn’t apply to me, so the whole thing must be wrong.”
This is why I’ve tried to simplify it, as I understand it, I rush to add, as best I can.
My bad if it seemed like I was coming down on you about your post.
Actually I know you know things can be about “who you know” heard that before right? How many rich people know poor people and vise versa? Personally I’ve seen people who hang with the CEOs and Big boss’s out there get jobs, promotions and the like thought not a better education but because they know the boss. I know you have seen this to with the “Friends & Family Plan” so many talk about is this not what the white privilege thing really is? Think about it as an example, politicians here are well off (most) and other politicians who have business ventures get certain contracts even if they do come in at a ridicules price at the end of it. Held up to scrutiny this therory holds together and with fewer exceptions better than White Privilege does. I know you’ve heard this one “It takes Money to Make Money”
LOL
Also Elvis before you reply to this post blindly read my below post as well under Just a Thought.
LOL
First off, I don’t “reply blindly”. As “Tired” ranted… er… posted, I’m more the “address everything in the post, picking it to shreds” type than the “replying blindly” type.
Secondly, I’ve read your posts and what you’re talking about is pretty much what I’m talking about. “Who you know” and all that.
Yes, we have it different here and yes, things are getting better and yes, things in many areas are better here than in many, if not most places.
That doesn’t mean we’re where we need to be equality-wise.
We’re not as far as some would like us to believe for political reasons, but we’re not there yet, either.
It also encompasses a myriad of other things, as well.
I really don’t think anyone can stand up and say, in all honesty, if they’ve REALLY thought about it and are being truthful with themselves, that there aren’t more challenges in life for black folks than white folks.
Do you?
“First off, I don’t “reply blindly”.”
I just wanted you to read my below comments first before replying to the above post out of context. That is all. Sorry if that term was offensive.
LOL
Like wise Elvis I am leaning towards some of the things Tired is saying. As you say that I am being disingenuous by simplifying it to a what circle you and your family run in or “who your know” I find that those that use the term “White Privilege” are being disingenuous in the assertion that all whites have this. With in society there are classifications based on a lot of factors the most prominent that I can think of is “Nobility” vs “Commoner” which if you think about it is the master vs slave relationship as the commoner never really owns anything that the Noble can’t take. Looking at this system we have many divisions’ dukes, duchess, Governors and such. Generally the closer to the blood line you are the more power you can exert on those below your standard hence classifications based on status and linked with welth. Most politicians are well off already in order for them to run for Government in the first place. Are you following me? Also just an aside this thought pattern is not exclusive to any race as there is always a tribe leader aka Pharos, King whatever one person or group in charge that basically dictates how everyone else makes out in every aspect of life.
Getting back to what I am saying about cretin people gravitating to certain circles of people of like class based on perceived status or the expectation to reach the status quo of the bracket they feel they belong too giving those that are in certain brackets a networking ability that other don’t have. This is the case of all people that is what I’m saying and why I personally believe its a status which is linked to wealth issue more than anything else especially now where those people are not segregated and share “common spaces” neighborhoods, schools, and place of work grant the familiarity needed to create equality among class groups today.
I do and have stated that black people had to play catch up do to segregation/ slavery those that where involved that is. In Africa not all people are poor and quite a few of the rich there are black Africans likewise around the globe there are to many exceptions to the White Privilege theory where as classism holds.
LOL
sorry for the long post
I agree with everything you’re saying, LOL. I really do.
But what I’m saying, and where this all started, is that what people THINK the concept of White Privilege is and what it ACTUALLY is, is two different things.
As I’ve said, to boil it down, if you believe that we don’t have racial equality, then the advantages that white folks have? That’s “White Privilege”. That’s it.
So ALL white folks retain this privilege then?
So you are stereotyping and generalizing then?
Make up your mind…
Now, you’re just being belligerent and assigning positions I’m not making.
I’m not sure why you’re freaking out like this.
If it’s because you have something personal against me, which it seems is the case, based on your extensive rant on my shortcomings as a contributor, why not drop me an email, and maybe we can talk it out.
If you’re not interested in working it out, why not just ignore me if you don’t like what I have to say.
“If anyone completes high school, maintains continuous employment for the first 5 years after leaving school, avoids having children until married, and avoids committing crime, they will do well in life.”
Elvis, with all respect, these things apply to anyone of whatever race, and they apply equally in Bermuda as to anywhere else.
I agree.
He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim. And don’t claim the pay disparity stats as your evidence as they include everyone and anyone despite their criminal record, education levels and marriage/child status.
So try and compare apples to apples (i.e. Compare black and white people that have followed the simple life rules of common sense that crazytalk proposed above).
WHAT?
Seriously? You guys are claiming that there ISN’T racial disparity? That a disparity doesn’t exist?
Wow… ok.
I’m not sure that there’s anything left to be said, is there?
Wow.
Just… wow.
read the post you idiot…you do exactly what you bitch and cry about…stop being a damn hypocrite..
no one said there isn’t racial disparity…
they are saying that if you followed those simple common sense rules of life that that the disparity would be either much smaller or non-existent…
now follow your own rules and read what people say and stop crying because they do not submit to your seemingly “superior opinion.”
I will make it simple for your simple mind…this is what is being argued by crazytalk and myself…
“So try and compare apples to apples (i.e. Compare black and white people that have followed the simple life rules of common sense that crazytalk proposed above).”
Elvis, it does work. Do those basic things and you, or anyone, will do fine in life.
There’s a lot of effort spent, actually, trying to persuade and help segments of the population to do those basic things, both here and in other countries. It’s surprising how much resistance there is. Not helped, if you don’t mind me pointing it out, by people who suggest that even if you do these things you’re wasting your time because “white people are always priviliged” or similar nonsense.
I have no problem with society trying to guide and help people to do the right things. But some people appear to have no interest in just doing the basics, and then they complain about ‘disparity’ or whatever.
First off, Tired, there’s no need for all the namecalling.
Secondly, your sentence “He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim.” indicates that YOU, in fact, are saying that there isn’t racial disparity.
Unless my “simple mind” is missing what you mean by “He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim.”
What else can that mean?
The rest is just you ranting insults at me, which I’m ignoring.
Crazytalk,
No one is disputing that if you follow those rules, you’ll do fine in life.
BUT will black folks and white folks, doing the EXACT same things, do AS fine as each other? Will they end up in the same place? I don’t think they will.
In addition, because of historical disparities, social factors, and lord knows how many other things, folks aren’t starting on the same level.
I agree that we should all strive to do our best and, if we do, we’ll do well, but “doing fine in life” doesn’t mean “equal”. It just doesn’t.
And no one has said anything like “even if you do these things you’re wasting your time because “white people are always priviliged””
But thank you for not calling me names!
“Secondly, your sentence “He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim.” indicates that YOU, in fact, are saying that there isn’t racial disparity.”
Your hypocrite tendencies are shining through again Elvis. Not once did I say that disparity didn’t exist. You are no different then the posters you rail against for “putting words in your mouth.”
I never said there was a disparity on the whole between whites and blacks.
The question is that if white and black people followed the same path in life, as crazytalk put forward in their previous post, the disparity would more thank likely be minimised or erased. Getting a education, working diligently for promotions and waiting till have children when you know you are both emotionally and financially prepared and avioding criminality will lead to a much more “easy” life then taking the opposite path.
That premise goes for all human beings in general. Now do you get what I am saying or do you want to continue to spread the lie that “Tired is claiming there is no disparity..blah blah blah!” Now are you man enough to admit you are wrong in your interpretation?
Let me point out ANOTHER contradictory point in your whole debate. Below you stated:
“NO ONE SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT! You’re making stuff up again!
NO ONE has said there’s an evil master plan by whites! Not one person, when talking about white privilege!”
Then in response to crazytalk’s assertion that if you lived byh the principles they put foward you said:
“No one is disputing that if you follow those rules, you’ll do fine in life.
BUT will black folks and white folks, doing the EXACT same things, do AS fine as each other? Will they end up in the same place? I don’t think they will.”
So which one is it Elvis? Is white privilege a generalized stereotype of ALL white people. And is there a grand plan by evil whites that exist to this day to keep blacks down? You can’t have it both ways. So which one is it. From your “answers” thus far it seems you are a little confused.
Wow.
You’re really freaking out about this, aren’t you?
I mean, you’re not even reading what I’m writing any more! You’re just foaming at the mouth.
Not once but TWICE did I point out that if your “He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim.” DOESN’T mean that I’m incorrect in my assertion that there IS a disparity, then I misunderstood you and asked you to elaborate further.
Because, to me, when you say “He wants to claim a disparity still exists.” then say that I can’t find stats to back it up, it seems like you’re saying that I’m wrong.
And your last little bit…
I’m not sure how you leaped from (ostensibly) “I don’t think that there is equality” (i.e. if black folks and white folks do exactly the same thing that they’ll end up in the same place” to “There’s an evil master plan by whites”, but that is QUITE a leap, to equate the two.
Then again, you haven’t let what people actually say stop you from reacting to what you WANT them to be saying so far, so…
But to answer your questions in the last paragraph:
It’s the one I said, not the one you said. No, it’s not. No, there isn’t… no one said there was… you made that up.
Are those “answers” clear enough?
Suprised Rolf will not be speaking on behalf of Bermuda , as he seems to have the monopoly or at least gets paid to keep this issue at the fore of every situation on which the only reasonable answer to a bad situation is White Priviledge .
Bermuda suffers from a long history of mis-labelling. This root of this problem is and always has been class-ism much more than racism. The poor suffer from marginalization regardless of race and the elite upper class do well to keep this antiquated system in tact, in part by diverting the focus away from the issue at hand.
Agreed but I do also agree that due to slavery/segragation blacks in this country did start behind whites in attaining wealth which explain the despairity. However the oppertunities are leveling out excluding foreign influenced jobs hence degree holders not finding employment in their fields. Private education, University, chances for Networking and the like are availible to those who can now afford it. These things are now hand in hand with classism.
LOL
Most of the upper class and elite are white people. Yes we do have some blacks who rise to the top but not without a struggle or a few stumbling blocks. as far as i know the issues that stem today like violence, poor education, non-employment etc. date as far back as slavery days. Us as a black people have to encourage and help one another in positive ways instead of trying to shun each other away when we’re aiming for some of the same things. Success varies from individual to individual and I dont think race should be a part of something that inhibits that. I think us as Bermudians coming from a country so small should be more close knit, whites and blacks together. Racism is a learned bahavior so if we all take steps in ensuring a beter Bermuda we need to put that in the bin.
So Elvis…
You blew alot of hto air and cried that no one is addressing your point…So here is your chance…
Please provide your personal definition of white privilege in Bermuda?
“Do your own research.
Any links I put up will be skimmed for material to cherry pick, as you’ve shown is your wont.”
point proven…
You are hilarious Elvis…
I have read your posts on numerous sites. And as soon as someone challenges your opinion you run and cry they don’t agree with me and they aren’t answering your question. When in fact the only problem with these people’s responses are that they don’t jive with your opionio. So they must be wrong and racist.
I outlined why i don’t believe white privilege cannot be used as a blanket statement/generalization of all white people. Not once in any post or conversation have I ever denied that whites have priviliege. But I don’t believe that is as true in Bermuda as say in the US. Provide me with BDA examples if you would care.
________________________________________________________________________________
I gave you personal experiences. I read your links and if you read them you would know that the whole jist of the white privilege argument is steeped in the above average ability of whites to accumulate and pass on their accumulated wealth to their offspring which in turn makes their lives that much easier. These were your links by the way.
I stated, and used myself as a prime example, that this isn’t the case for all white people. That is my argument and I provided a real life example, myself and my family.
You come back and cried that I called you a name and I am not interested in conversation. Yet when asked about your POV on the subject you fail to provide a single argument. A single argument! No, instead you cried that we are not arguing in the manner that you wish as somehow your opinion is more validated than ours because of your superior intellect on the subject.
_____________________________________________________________________________
On top of that you say people are taking your arguments out of context and putting words in your mouth. Then in the same breath you respond to crazytalk’s in the exact same manner that you claim others do:
crazytalk said:
“If anyone completes high school, maintains continuous employment for the first 5 years after leaving school, avoids having children until married, and avoids committing crime, they will do well in life.”
Elvis, with all respect, these things apply to anyone of whatever race, and they apply equally in Bermuda as to anywhere else.”
Elvis’ jacked up response:
“WHAT?
Seriously? You guys are claiming that there ISN’T racial disparity? That a disparity doesn’t exist?
Wow… ok.”
So hypocrite, show me where in any of our posts that we stated that the racial disparity was a myth? You can’t can you…That would be because no one ever argued that point and I know that you know that (am I giving you too much credit here?)
Start practicing what you preach or just shut up and accept that there are differing views and/or opinions on different subjects.
“But I don’t believe that is as true in Bermuda as say in the US. Provide me with BDA examples if you would care.”
When I make that statement I don’t believe that it can be stated that Bermuda Govt and/or institutions are geared towards ensuring all white Bermudians get a “leg-up” in life over their black counterparts. Unless that is you are accusing the PLP of doing.
Your article stated that the US Govt and its related agencies (i.e. mortgage providers) give preference to white Americans. So please show me in BDA where this is the case?
There’s definitely old money in Bermuda. But to claim that all whites have access to this cash, lifestyle and privileges (i.e. no concerns over $$$, real estate etc.) is wrong. Not every Bermudian is a Cooper, Gibbons, Gosling etc. nor are they all descendants of these old Bermuda families.
Elvis, I am part of the silent majority. My family is of mixed race. My beginnings were modest…my parents (though white) had low-paid, menial and difficult jobs. I never went to private school. I work. I never inherited a penny. I pay my taxes. I don’t break the law. I try to avoid trouble. I teach my kids how to behave and treat others. Everything I own I bought from a salary I earned at work. Every job I’ve had, I got because I applied for it and was lucky enough to make a good impression at the interview. I didn’t get anywhere using ‘connections’ because I didn’t have any.
So it always rubs me the wrong way when I am told I have “white privelige” because I’m white. It isn’t true. I actually had to work to get along in life.
I cosign this and if it weren’t for my wife who is black I doubt I would be where I am today as she continually supported me bettering myself. Thank you Baby
LOL
White privilege doesn’t mean you don’t have to work if you’re white.
It means that there isn’t equality and, because you’re white, you have certain advantages. No matter how big or small, they’re still advantages.
That’s it. No one is saying that you don’t have to work.
What “priviliges” do I have because I’m white, Elvis? Name a few. I’d love to hear them.
Oh, right, it’s not every white person, it just “may happen in some circumstances”.
How can that be right? I thought you said white people had some built-in advantage just because they’re white? Now you’re back-tracking?
Well, I can name a few examples in Bermuda where black people have priviliges because of ‘who they know’.
What does it all prove? Nothing. Lots of people have some kind of ‘advantage’ based on – say – knowing a person who might be able to help them in life. It happens. To both white people and black people. It is not confined to one or the other.
It should not be used as a cop-out or excuse for not making an effort in life.
Who are you quoting with “it just “may happen in some circumstances”. “? ‘Cuz it’s certainly not me.
I’m not using it as a cop-out or an excuse, so please don’t assign that argument to me.
ALL that I’m saying is that IF you agree that there is NOT equality, then one race HAS to be better off. Right? And IF one race is better off, there HAVE to be advantages in being that race, or at least DISadvantages to being the other race or races.
That advantage or disadvantage? That’s what we’re talking about.
If you don’t agree that there IS an advantage or disadvantage, then it has to follow logically that there IS equality.
How am I wrong in that supposition?
So in other words you can’t point to one “benefit” that white Bermudians are receiving to the detriment of black Bermudians?
So you are saying that ALL white people are inherently advantaged because some white people have vast wealth, power and property?
So what are my PERSONAL advantages for being white? I pay the same amount for my groceries, rent and gas etc. Please just give us one advantage that we non-rich and powerful white people have.
All we are asking for is just ONE..,
If you can’t put your finger on it, just say it…
No. That is NOT what I’m saying at all, not even a little bit.
You are projecting motivations and positions on me that I’m not making.
I’ve never used the phrases ““benefit” that white Bermudians are receiving to the detriment of black Bermudians”, “ALL white people are inherently advantaged because some white people have vast wealth, power and property”…
You’re making things up again.
You seem to be intentionally ignoring the explanation I keep putting up. I don’t know why.
And your PERSONAL advantages? They’re just that. Personal. I don’t know you or your background.
So, no. I don’t know what your PERSONAL advantages are.
I said it. Happy?
benefit is synonymous with advantage in my world
“So, no. I don’t know what your PERSONAL advantages are.”
But you assume I have some based on the fact that I am white?
I think I’ve made my position clear. I don’t know how else to say it to make it clearer.
I’ve stated how I, based on research, conversations and thought, see the concept of White Privilege and how it differs from your original opinion on it, based, seemingly, on you hearing the two words together and making an assumption, or the definition given by someone using those two words for political gain.
I’ve answered your questions to the best of my ability and borne your insults and personal attacks with patience.
The answers to any further questions going down the road you seem to be going are in at least one of the FAR too many posts I’ve written today.
When you are interested in a REAL conversation, based on things I’ve ACTUALLY said, then you seem to know where to contact me. If you’re going to continue to make things up and accuse me of imaginary things I didn’t say, then please let me know and I’ll just bow out.
You act like rich white people go around and seek their poorer white counterparts and assist them with accumulating their own wealth so that the whole white race can be labelled as having privilege. That results in some of one race being better off then everybody else, both poorer whites and blacks. So why do some rich whites seem to be the standard for all white people. Pretty sure stereotyping of that nature wouldn’t be tolerated by other races. But whites should sit there and take generalizations with a smile. Frig that, I am human as well and refuse to be pigeoned hole by you or anyone else.
So lets recap it is your belief that because some white people have old money that must mean that all white people are inherently advantaged and lucky in life?
No, I don’t. Never said anything like that.
You’re making that up.
“Again… these are EXAMPLES of white privilege. They don’t apply to everyone.”
Your words, this afternoon, saying that privilege only happens in some circumstances (paraphrased).
I still haven’t seen the list of my “priveleges” by the way.
Anyway, I guess we don’t agree. I don’t agree that all white people have privileges just due to the fact they are white. I don’t agree that all black people are disadvantaged just because they are black.
I do think, still, that if anyone completes high school, maintains continuous employment for the first 5 years after leaving school, avoids having children until married, and avoids committing crime, they will do well in life.
It’s a tried and tested formula. More people should do it.
“I do think, still, that if anyone completes high school, maintains continuous employment for the first 5 years after leaving school, avoids having children until married, and avoids committing crime, they will do well in life.
It’s a tried and tested formula. More people should do it.”
I agree with you completely. 100%!
I just don’t think they’d end up in the exact same place at the end.
Elvis, thanks for agreeing 100% with the first part of my various posts. I think that means we both agree that an individual, if he or she takes some basic personal responsibility, will do well in life. Whatever their race or background.
But we disagree still on your other point about where they would end up. In other words, you are back to the ‘white privilege’ thing.
Let me give you an example of how that ‘privilege’ plays out in real life. In the last 20 years I have applied for 4 good jobs where I was in competition with other applicants. On one occasion out of the 4 I got the position. In two of the four examples, a black Bermudian got the job. In the last example, a white Bermudian got the job (no black person applied that time as it happens). In fact every time a black person applied, a black person got the job. To make it clear, I was disappointed but not upset at all; I knew I wasn’t ‘owed’ a job; I knew others might get it. Life is like that.
One of the times that the black Bermudian got the job, I ended up reporting to him…very happily I should add, because he was (and is) an excellent person, fully deserving of his success.
In real life, rather than ‘theory land’ (a) a black person can be successful (b) white people do not have any automatic advantage, and (c) when a person is given a job, there are sometimes applicants who didn’t get it, and it is not necessarily because of their colour. It usually means that another applicant was better suited. Get over it.
So, again, on your point about ‘where they end up’, I absolutely disagree about white privilege. It’s an excuse, frankly, for not making an effort.
No, what you SAID is what I quoted.
But.. just a Q… If I am unable to highlight a disparity, doesn’t that mean that there isn’t one?
Thus, doesn’t that mean that your position is that there isn’t a disparity?
Thus, isn’t how I read your post correct?
I’m not lying. You’re using incitive language to try to get a rise… It’s not going to work. I’m not going to get as angry as you are.
Now, to go back to the original thing, what I SAID is that I don’t believe that it’s true that they’d end up in the same place. I expressed a belief, AS a belief.
I don’t need to back that up. It’s just something I believe based on experience, research and contemplation.
This is all just nitpicking on a “flaw” that you’ve found… a thread you think you can unravel.
You’ve very pointedly and very obviously ignored pretty much everything else I’ve said and even just dropped your own arguments to focus on this.
As I’ve said before, I’m not sure how much clearer I can make my position. I’ve repeated it in as many ways as I think I can and you seem to refuse to want to even take a look.
The last little bit is just another ad hominem attack, trying to change the focus to HOW I post, not WHAT I post.
But to address your point: The VAST majority of posters that I get into arguments with, and this is with a very few exceptions, end up becoming good, close friends that I can talk to with a level of respect and understanding.
The ones like you, who keep making things up, putting words in my mouth, making personal attacks, using insults and childish namecalling, moving the goalposts of their own argument and ignoring the things I actually say in favour of some imaginary argument they’ve created in their own minds?
They usually end up proving to be exactly what they appear.
Crazytalk, the whole concept belongs in “theoryland”!
That’s the thing that I’m not sure is coming across.
It’s a theory that was inspired when someone realized that they personally had several advantages and others had disadvantages, simply because of the racial disparity.
It’s not supposed to be an attack. It’s not, although I understand how people take it as such, the way it’s been misused for political gain down here, a “YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST!” thing.
It’s, at its very core, a thought exercise.
I totally get that there are examples and anecdotal evidence that can punch holes in specifics.
But on the whole, it’s not a bad thing to think about the possibility that some of the stuff that we can take for granted (like the fact that George Bush wasn’t a “White President” and Brad Pitt isn’t a “White Movie Star”, at its simplest level) aren’t things that people of other races can take for granted.
Every example doesn’t have to apply to every person or situation.
To address your points, though, the concept of white privilege does NOT mean that a)black folks can’t be successful b) white folks have an advantage in every possible area and c) someone’s racial bias or lack thereof will always be in favour of the white person.
None of that has anything to do with what we’re talking about.
Now, if, after ALL of that, and all the posts I’ve made and all the reiteration of position etc, you STILL think I’m saying that white privilege means any of that or that it’s an excuse to not work… well, then I don’t know what else to say. I really don’t.
I think we may be having a couple of different conversations at the same time and they’re getting all tied up together…
Apologies… the post starting with “No, what you SAID is what I quoted.” should be in reply to “Tired’s” ranting personal attack at the bottom of the page this morning, found here: http://bernews.com/2011/04/curb-to-present-at-white-privilege-conference/#comment-37605
Again… these are EXAMPLES of white privilege. They don’t apply to everyone.
You’re freaking out about accusations that aren’t being made.
No one made the claims that you say they have.
They are simply examples of advantages that white folks MAY have.
So then I guess the theory should be called, “Some White Privilege” or “Select White Perosn Privilege” instead of a blanket generalization such as “White Privilege.”
And if you can’t understand how whites, like me, are offended when some claim that all I/we have achieved, through my own accord by the way, is undeserved and somehow some unearned privilege due to white supremacy, then there will never be any true undertsanding/reconciliation over the subject.
To belittle ones achievements and disregard the hard work and struggle they put in to achieveing their lot in life will only result in responses such as mine.
As crazytalk queried (and me numerous times throughout this “conversation”) what privileges do i receive right now in BDA for the mere sake of being a white boy with no inheritance, no connections to call upon and no property?
YOU are the one calling it a blanket generalization, based on a misunderstanding of the theory.
If someone was saying that all you’ve achieved was undeserved, I would totally understand why you’re offended, and I’d be offended, too.
However, no one’s saying that, nor are they belittling your achievements nor disregarding hard work and struggle.
Those are your own construction, again, based on a misunderstanding.
I’ve heard some people feel the same way about affermitive action laws.
LOL
Oh and one more thing so as this theory seems so flexible one might be able to say that some black people also retain this “White Privilege” then based on the discussions far.
I am really still having a hard time with this not being class related. Yes I do see Elvis’s point and I have agreed that the majority of blacks do not start at the same point as most whites. However not all whites start at the same point as other white same goes for blacks. In fact I’d say that there is quite a bit of over lapping at this point in time. Are we all collectively equal no but we are not individually equal either. This really is starting to sound like a Perspective of the person asking the question of whether or not they are equal to who ever they are trying to compare themselves to for Bermuda anyway. I’ve done a lot of different types of work and I can personally tell you that some peoples houses on this island are lavish to say the lest about them. On the flip side I have seen some not so nice place. The one thing that they have in common is a steady mix of black and white owners. I still feel that if HR people who seem to be mostly foreign hence the foreign influence I talked about earlier pick based on their countries prevailing bias (social norm for them) then we will see that the gap will increase further than if it was Bermudians in these key areas as I feel our bias is less than say the US, or UKish places.
We have the familiarity needed for equality. IMO anyway. I also feel the politics of late has really also hindered the situation and increased animosity.
LOL
I agree with everything that you said in that post, LOL.
The point of the concept, as far as I see it, and how it’s worked for me, is so that, in a discussion, a long term discussion, we recognize stuff that we may not notice, such as bias or taking things for granted, etc.
The point of it is that we aren’t all starting at the same point.
And, if it’s ok with you, I am going to blatantly steal the line “We have the familiarity needed for equality”. That sums up Bermuda… or at least the Bermuda I think we both want… perfectly! I’ll give credit when I think of it, but
I have. Several times.
Any chance of you pointing out where crazytalk and/or I stated that there was no disparity? A conveniently ignored point I see.
Three times now. I’ve pointed to YOUR post three times, quoted it three times, explained why I think that way based on the post three times and asked you to elaborate if I’m wrong… three times.
You mean this post:
“He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim. And don’t claim the pay disparity stats as your evidence as they include everyone and anyone despite their criminal record, education levels and marriage/child status.
So try and compare apples to apples (i.e. Compare black and white people that have followed the simple life rules of common sense that crazytalk proposed above).”
Read the post first. The disparity comment was based on the crazytalk’s assertion that if everyone followed the rules of life.
Read the last paragraph of comparing apples to apples. The apples being that if all humans followed the “rules to a more successful being” (for lack of a better phrase) that the disparity amongst the races would be greatly reduced if not erased completely. That is a little different then your false claim that we stated that there is no disparity. And I have pointed out this fact to you more than THREE times. But you conveniently ignore and obfuscate my actual point to benefit your POV.
What I don’t understand is that you stated that there is no grand plan by whites to oppress blacks through limited opportunities. But then in an answer to crazytalk you stated:
“No one is disputing that if you follow those rules, you’ll do fine in life.
BUT will black folks and white folks, doing the EXACT same things, do AS fine as each other? Will they end up in the same place? I don’t think they will.”
______________________________________________________________________
So what would be the reasoning for your belief that black people still wouldn’t be on par with white people if both races followed the same path and “rules of life” mentioned above? There must be a reason and something or someone preventing equality if all follow the same path.
Get what I am saying about you being contradictory.
Before I get into it, are you saying that they WOULD be at the same point?
In this day of age, yes. That premise might not be valid in the US. But in a Bermuda context, which is the point I am arguing from, yes.
So I am assuming that you are once again contradicting yourself by stating they wouldn’t be at the same point. Now in order for that to happen there must be forces in play to prevent this equality despite the same approach in life.
Thus you actually do believe there is a grand plan of whites to keep blacks at a lower level in life to whites.
That’s a whole lot of skewed logic and assumption.
I’m not contradicting myself when I say that I don’t believe that they would be at the same point. I made that assertion earlier, so, sadly, your accusations, as always, ring false.
However, the “forces in play to prevent equality”, the existence of, I do agree with, do not HAVE to be a “grand plan of whites”. That’s a logical fallacy that just doesn’t work. I know you’re DYING for me to be thinking that, but it’s just not true and no amount of leaping around is going to change that.
Because “a grand plan of whites to keep blacks at a lower level in life to whites” is one possible, however improbable, reason for inequality, it is not the only one.
And the only person putting this up as a reason for inequality, which you’ve admitted exists in Bermuda, is, in fact, you.
Now, to go back to your other “You haven’t said where I said blah blah blah” thing…
I put up what you said and how I interpreted THAT part of it. The context doesn’t change when you read the other discrete parts. You said, in a negative way, that I was taking a position that there IS a disparity, then claimed that I couldn’t back it up, indicating, and again, this is how I interpreted it, and if I’m wrong, I’ve invited you to correct me, that my position is wrong, thus, if my position is that there IS a disparity, and you disagree, yours is that there isn’t.
How have I misinterpreted that?
You even support my position, that they might not be in the same place when you say (emphasis mine):
“The apples being that if all humans followed the “rules to a more successful being” (for lack of a better phrase) that the DISPARITY AMONGST THE RACES WOULD BE GREATLY REDUCED if not erased completely.”
Am I missing something? If it’s only greatly reduced (yes, the addendum says “if not erased completely”, but you left the door open for my position to be true), then it’s not equal and they will not be in the same place.
“That is a little different then your false claim that we stated that there is no disparity.”
If you look, I actually asked you if that was your position. I didn’t claim it.
“You guys are claiming that there ISN’T racial disparity? That a disparity doesn’t exist?”
The squiggly thing at the end means it’s a question.
Now you are just proving yourself to be a hypocrite and a liar…
Hypocrites and racists make me mad…but liars make me f’ing fume!! (re: you are lying that I said there was no disparity, but that’s what people do when they can’t justify their argument; like pointing out ONE privilege I maintain in BDA over my black Bermudian counterparts)
It’s probably best that you bow out.
And now, you’re just lashing out again and making personal attacks on things you’ve made up… AGAIN.
I’ve shown, REPEATEDLY, where you said it and why I think that you said it and have asked you REPEATEDLY to explain how I’m wrong with my interpretation. You have REPEATEDLY refused to explain or elucidate.
I’ve answered all your questions to the best of my ability and you’ve done nothing but agressively attack me for no reason other than you don’t seem to like me.
One thing I will NOT stand for is being called a liar, ESPECIALLY when the only one promoting falsehoods around here is YOU.
So, either explain what you meant when you indicated that I was wrong and couldn’t back up my claim that there’s a disparity, or retract your statement.
Because you DID do that. There’s no denying it.
The only answer can be bais. Again something that Bermuda has less of then most other countries or at least had less but I could be wrong.
LOL
Wow, Tired. That was quite a rant!
Your personal opinion of me aside (by the way, none of what you said is true… but that’s neither here nor there… you keep using personal attacks to make your point. See how well that goes for you), I’ve addressed most of your points.
Do you just not read my posts, or do you intentionally ignore things you don’t like?
My “jacked up” response was, as I said earlier in the thread, to your line “He wants to claim a disparity still exists. But I bet you can’t provide stats to back up your claim.”
“So hypocrite, show me where in any of our posts that we stated that the racial disparity was a myth? You can’t can you…”
If I somehow misunderstood that as meaning something other than “He is incorrect when he claims a disparity still exists”, then please let me know.
“I read your links and if you read them you would know that the whole jist of the white privilege argument is steeped in the above average ability of whites to accumulate and pass on their accumulated wealth to their offspring which in turn makes their lives that much easier.”
No. That’s not the WHOLE gist of it. That’s just one section that you cherry picked. The inheritance thing is one small example, and, as with anything, there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule and, IF you look, NO ONE applies that one example to every white person ever.
My original position stands. You MAY want to do some more research into what White Privilege, as a theory, REALLY means and not the argument that you’ve made up in your head, that there’s some huge white plot, etc etc.
“outlined why i don’t believe white privilege cannot be used as a blanket statement/generalization of all white people. Not once in any post or conversation have I ever denied that whites have priviliege. But I don’t believe that is as true in Bermuda as say in the US. Provide me with BDA examples if you would care.”
Again, the “using it as a blanket statement” think is YOUR construct that you added.
And, if you don’t deny that whites have privilege and agree that, even though it’s not as bad here as it is elsewhere, we still have it here in Bermuda, why are we arguing? You agree that there is white privilege. End of story.
If you know that there is white privilege in Bermuda, you have your own examples.
As I’ve said several times, what you are arguing against is something that you’ve made up using assumptions, not anything I’ve said.
You are something else.
I don’t really believe you read the articles you forwarded onto me.
The main argument of the Wikipedia article states that white privilege is steeped in US Govt institutions and practices. This argument was that white people have better access to healthcare, govt assisted mortgages etc. Show me in BDA where such a practice is conducted?
The privilege stems mainly from the economic retstraints placed on blacks by whites for centuries. This fact allowed white people to accumulate vast amounts of wealth which is passed down to the next generation of whites and thus giving them a proverbial headstart in life.
I argued that this isn’t the case for all white people. You agree but then contradict yourself over and over again in your various posts. So if that isn’t the gist of white privilege then maybe you should do some better research and stop relying on Wikipedia.
Ok, first off, the Wikipedia link was put up because YOU are too lazy to get off your ass and actually RESEARCH something before starting to pontificate on it, exposing your complete and utter, and seemingly intentional, ignorance of the subject.
THEN, you go off on a tear because I have the affrontery to suggest that you might want to research this subject that you are so obviously ignorant of.
THEN, when I do as you ask, you start making personal attacks on HOW I post and then start making up arguments that I haven’t made.
YOU are the one going off of bad information based on imaginary things nobody has said, not me.
YOU are the one who has OBVIOUSLY done NO research at all, so to advise me to do BETTER research, when you’ve done none, is laughable!
YOU are not listening to what I’m saying, YOU are making the accusations and insinuations and putting words in people’s mouths, YOU are the one lashing out. Not me.
One thing about you, you always seem to be the “victim” of misinterpretations while you cherry pick other’s points and obfuscate the actual argument.
You are the definition of a hypocrite.
Don’t like the label, then don’t be one. Simple solution to a simple problem.
Nothing here but a personal attack.
Nothing there but the truth.
Hard to swallow sometimes I know.
I guess how I find it hard to swallow that somehow I am privileged for being the color I was born.
Not the truth, just a personal attack, based on nothing.
There’s a difference.
Thank you crazytalk.
Two years ago I applied for an internal position (training program for managers) within the company I currently work for. I was denied and was told flatly that they have been mandated, by the higher powers that be, that young black Bermudians be given first preference for the position. And despite the fact that I had worked at the firm for going on 2 years I was denied. I understood their position, was upset, but never ranted and raved about how I was discrimnated against based on my skin color despite the fact that is exactly what I was told by management! In the end i still work for the same firm and work with one of the successful applicants. In the last three years of the program offered not one white Bermudian has been a successful applicant. But you never see any of the applicants claiming discrimination and racism over that fact.
Last year a work permit of one of my colleagues came to an end. My boss encouraged myself and black spouse of a Bermudian to apply for the upcoming vacancy. Again I was denied the promotion, despite me working for over 3 years at the firm now, in favor of the black foreign individual who happens to be married to a Bermudian. I accepted their decision without a whimper and continue to work for the firm and now report to the black individual who is married to a foreigner.
Now when that happens to the benefit of a white Bermudian and/or expat there are cries of racism, institutional white supremacy, and anti-Bermudian.
The whole point is that in BDA this whole concept of exlcusive white privilege is nonsense. my personal experiences of growing up in BDA led me to that conclusion. Until someone can point out ONE area where a middle to lower class white Bermudian has over their black counterparts then I will continue to call it nonsense. As mentioned not all of us (whites) have the ability to inherit unearned priviliges such as $$$ and/or property (real estate, equity etc.), despite what Elvis, Commissiong, Winnefield or Furbert says.
You have never walked in my shoes so don’t tell me what my life must be like.
I don’t think I’ve ever told you what your life must be like.
And PLEASE don’t lump me in with Mr. Commissiong or Sen. Furbert when it comes to our definition of White Privilege.
Theirs is actually a lot closer to yours than mine.
I’ve never said “Exclusive white privilege”, nor that it has to do SOLELY with “inheriting unearned priviliges such as $$$ and/or property”. That’s never been my position. Those are things that you cherry picked from the links you demanded I provide, so to claim that I DID say that is, in fact, an untruth.
If you’d actually read my posts, instead of flying off the handle and lashing out in a tantrum, you’d see that.
“So, either explain what you meant when you indicated that I was wrong and couldn’t back up my claim that there’s a disparity, or retract your statement”
You’re special.
i said that you would not be able to highlight a disparity between any human beings that followed the simple rules of life that crazytalk laid out.
Either accept that is what I said or continue on with your lying and justify in your head.
or do one better and provide a single white privilege that you THINK i have in BDA for simply being white.
It is really up to you.
You ever notice how you get into thee arguments over and over again with so many different posters (and I have read the threads). You ever stop and think that your approach might be somewhat flawed instead of believing that everyone else must be wrong?
My response to this is up the thread… somehow, it got mixed in with a response to crazytalk.
“They usually end up proving to be exactly what they appear.”
Ditto…
Elvis, the conference (in the article) materials talk about what privilege is, in the view of the organisers.
It says privilege means ‘going out in public without fear of being harrassed or worried about physical safety’. Which group in Bermuda is more likely to have that privilege these days?
It says privilege means ‘assume that if you work hard and follow the rules you will get what you deserve’. You know my views on that.
It says privilege means ‘not having to think about your race….on a daily basis’. Who does that apply to in Bermuda?
I get the fact the Brad Pitt doesn’t get called a ‘white actor’. These days though, people don’t generally get called a ‘black actor’ or ‘black singer’ or ‘black executive’. You’re harking back to days that don’t exist any more.
If advantage and privilege helps some white (or black) people, it does so to the exclusion of everyone else, including many other white (or black) people who don’t have the same advantage. If there are less advantaged black people, there must be less advantaged white people. It’s the sweeping assumptions and generalisations of the whole ‘privilege’ thing that make it offensive and counter productive.
I agree crazytalk.
I have never heard Denzel Washington referred to as a black actor, Beyonce as a black and/or light skinned singer/performer or Phillip Buttefield as the black CEO of HSBC Bermuda, Paula Cox as the black leader in Bermuda, Jeremy Cox as the black CEO of the BMA etc.
Maybe Elvis’ friends and his inner circles refer to these individuals first bytheir skin color. But I know I never hear that from where i sit or watch.
But watch Elvis act surprised that we haven’t and say ‘REALLY’ but provide no evidence. It is what he does…
“It says privilege means ‘going out in public without fear of being harrassed or worried about physical safety’. Which group in Bermuda is more likely to have that privilege these days?”
Both races, actually. If you think that black folks aren’t being harrassed or put in danger, you aren’t paying attention. In fact, for the latter part, an argument can be made that black folks, or at least a certain segment, are in MORE danger.
“It says privilege means ‘assume that if you work hard and follow the rules you will get what you deserve’. You know my views on that.”
And we’re going to have to agree to disagree on that.
“It says privilege means ‘not having to think about your race….on a daily basis’. Who does that apply to in Bermuda?”
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here…
” get the fact the Brad Pitt doesn’t get called a ‘white actor’. These days though, people don’t generally get called a ‘black actor’ or ‘black singer’ or ‘black executive’. You’re harking back to days that don’t exist any more.”
REALLY?
Wow… Sorry. This one, I think you are COMPLETELY off the mark on.
People are identified by race in this way ALL the time. Not everyone, but.. my heavens. Really? You don’t think that problem exists any more?
“If advantage and privilege helps some white (or black) people, it does so to the exclusion of everyone else, including many other white (or black) people who don’t have the same advantage. If there are less advantaged black people, there must be less advantaged white people. It’s the sweeping assumptions and generalisations of the whole ‘privilege’ thing that make it offensive and counter productive.”
This bit… I don’t know what to do with.
I’ve tried and tried to explain what I mean, but… I dunno… maybe I’m not using the right words or explaining what I’m trying to say well enough.
If you’re making these arguments with me, in THIS conversation, then I haven’t made myself clear enough and I have no idea how else to do it.
I don’t understand your logic in that, nor how it applies to ANYTHING that I’ve said.
How can I make myself clearer?
” you think that black folks aren’t being harrassed or put in danger, you aren’t paying attention. In fact, for the latter part, an argument can be made that black folks, or at least a certain segment, are in MORE danger.”
Are white people attacking them or provoking attacks on black Bermudians?
never said that, neither did they.
you’re making stuff up again.
And to debunk your myth that this phrase “White Privilege” isn’t about calling white people racist and labelling them as white supremacists I will leave you with a quote from the Conference’s founder/organizer Mr. Eddie Moore:
“According to the conference’s founder and director he wants everybody to attend conference to learn that, quote, “white supremacy, white privilege, racism and other forms of oppression are designed for your destruction, designed to kill you.”
So apparently white privilege is about a system where whites seek to oppress and ultimately destroy any minority community. Straight from the horse’s mouth…
You know what?
I’m tired of you.
You win. You’re right. White privilege is all about badmouthing whites.
My bad. I don’t know what I was thinking.
You’re the winner. It’s all yours. Way to go.
Evidence is there, from the founder of the WPC no less…
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy…I wiiiinnnnnn!!!
Nah…it is about generalizing and stereotyping all whites into a neat little labelled package…
I never disagreed that some whites definitely have a “leg-up” in life over less privileged persons (white, black, yellow etc.)
As I said before if you don’t believe that what the term does then maybe it should be entitled the:
“Select White Privileged Persons”
or
“Rich White Privileged People”
But stereotyping is only bad when it is used to describe non-white tendencies.
Anything else against ALL white people is well deserved, unlike their unearned white privilege…bastards
How are mixed people supposed to feel about all this?
Here is something that might help this conversation: Workshop on Structural Racism led by Lynne Winfield and Cordell Riley. Tuesday, May 3 at 9:00am
Location: The Center on Philanthropy, Ground Floor, Sterling House, 16 Wesley St., Hamilton. Free too and with refreshments. Get time off from work. It is likely to be worth it.
I hope you can make it.
am person who looks white but I am the daughter of a dark-skinned black woman and a white man. Since I have had to live in this skin for the last 65 years, I have learned a few things about this issue of privilege. I have lived in both worlds and can tell you without reservation that there are privileges that comes with white skin. The problem is that many of us pretend not to be aware of it. Many of us are not familiar with the description and therefore react to it. I understand, I reacted too until I understood the intention. The intention is to cause people to be conscious of the privileges that come with white skin and how it works to advantage whites or near whites and against those who are not. It is a central feature of the legacy of racism that has not gone away and will not go away until we identify and root it out. A mature discussion about it is the way forward to understanding how each of us unwittingly participate in an established system that disadvantages others. It can be scary because of the fear of loss of an asset. It is not to say that people of colour don’t have privilege. I have been the recipient of slights by blacks because they are conscious of the advantage that are alloted to people who look like me but I understand where it comes from. It is an angry reaction. Of course it hurts to be labeled especially since I have worked hard to not be a part of it. It is not just whites that must understand White Privilege, Blacks also need to understand too that it is an institution and avoid personalizing it.