David Burt: “Race, Ethnicity & Two Bermudas”

May 16, 2017

“I believe that building a Bermuda of inclusion, empathy and opportunity for all is the only way forward and the only hope for a better Bermuda,” Opposition Leader David Burt said.

This statement was made as Mr Burt delivered a speech entitled “Race, Ethnicity and the Two Bermudas” this afternoon [May 16] at the Hamilton Rotary Club meeting.

“With Bermuda’s natural beauty and the welcoming kindness of Bermudians – we appear to be paradise. And for some, Bermuda really is just that. For others however, it is quite the opposite,” Mr Burt said.

“Last month, the Bank of Bermuda Foundation released the findings of their two-year comprehensive review. They acknowledged that, ‘Bermuda is a historically, overtly racially segregated and fundamentally unfair society.’ Simply put, they concluded that Two Bermudas clearly do exist.

“They went on to say ‘one where access to opportunity, financial security and general well-being is very difficult to achieve, and another Bermuda where, for some, there appear to be few obstacles in their path.’

“Ask one Bermudian if this is true and the answer is no. Yet ask another Bermudian and they would speak of the pain they have lived and witnessed in experiencing added hurdles placed in their path.

“One Bermuda sees no unfairness in the way Bermuda operates, because to them, it has given them every opportunity. This is the basic foundation of our two Bermudas: not only do they exist, but only one side, that which does not benefit, can acknowledge it.

“So, what are we to do about it? Firstly, without awareness and acknowledgment there can be no action. We cannot fix what we will not face.”

“For many Bermudians, struggle is something that has always defined us. Others in our community don’t understand it at all. This is one of the fundamental divides we see between the Two Bermudas, and, to say that race doesn’t play a role in this divide is to lack a fundamental understanding of our country’s history.”

“With megayachts now arriving daily and international eyes on Bermuda, the facade seems more important than ever. Yet how can we create paradise when poverty meets privilege at every mark?

“The answer is in the ABCs,” Mr Burt said, adding that “A” is for acknowledgement, and “B” is for “Building a better Bermuda that works for all and not just for some.”

“We must build a Bermuda that dismantles racism, by identifying and challenging those who perpetuate it. We must build a Bermuda that values all our children, by properly resourcing our public schools and our public school teachers,” Mr Burt said.

“We must build a Bermuda that creates real opportunities for Bermudians, by implementing fair immigration policies that promote employment and stimulate economic growth.”

“To build the Bermuda we need, we must dismantle the Two Bermudas we have. How do we achieve this?

“In my view this cannot be done without the “C” of Collaboration. We frequently talk of bipartisan reform, but by “collaboration” I do not just mean by political parties, this buy-in must extend beyond Government and take place across all segments of our community.

“From community clubs to social events, from big business to cultural initiatives to community service organisations like Rotary, across the board we must look at how together we can achieve our goals to build the Bermuda that benefits us all.

“True change cannot happen unless both of two Bermuda recognise that for our country to advance, for our country to unify, and for our country to progress, we must take real action to create one Bermuda.

“My speech today is a call to both the privileged and to the disaffected,” Mr Burt said.

Note: Apologies, the video above is missing a short portion at the beginning [2 minutes], as before the event there was some confusion over whether the media, who had been invited, were actually welcome at the event, with some Rotary members complaining. Due to the confusion, we did not do our normal audio checks in advance, so had an audio issue at the beginning. Apologies for this!

Mr Burt’s full speech is below:

Good afternoon to the Hamilton Rotarians, guests and members of the media.

I want to thank my fellow MP, and your former President, Neville Tyrell for kindly introducing me. And the entire Hamilton Rotary for hosting me today.

With Bermuda’s natural beauty and the welcoming kindness of Bermudians – we appear to be paradise. And for some, Bermuda really is just that. For others however, it is quite the opposite.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on matters close to my heart and close to my conscience. Those matters are ones of race, of class, of opportunity.

Last month, the Bank of Bermuda Foundation released the findings of their two-year comprehensive review. They acknowledged that, “Bermuda is a historically, overtly racially segregated and fundamentally unfair society.” Simply put, they concluded that Two Bermudas clearly do exist.

They went on to say “one where access to opportunity, financial security and general well-being is very difficult to achieve, and another Bermuda where, for some, there appear to be few obstacles in their path.”

Ask one Bermudian if this is true and the answer is no. Yet ask another Bermudian and they would speak of the pain they have lived and witnessed in experiencing added hurdles placed in their path.

One Bermuda sees no unfairness in the way Bermuda operates, because to them, it has given them every opportunity. This is the basic foundation of our two Bermudas: not only do they exist, but only one side, that which does not benefit, can acknowledge it.

So, what are we to do about it?

Firstly, without awareness and acknowledgment there can be no action. We cannot fix what we will not face.

The Bank of Bermuda Foundation has shifted their approach on the basis of their findings. What if we were all to do this? What if we were to personally acknowledge at every step how privilege has brought us to where we are and, upon accepting it as truth, what if we were to do something about it? When I speak of privilege I do not limit that to race. Race, sex, and class all intersect to form differing levels of privilege.

I am a college-educated black man. Two of those descriptors afford me certain privileges. In Bermuda, men earn 10% more than women, on average. A college educated man earns 20% more than one with a secondary school diploma. However, there is a higher unemployment rate for college-educated black men than there is for white men without a college degree.

When I was growing up, my parents worked hard and invested all they could in my education, believing that education would unlock the keys to opportunity.

When I returned to Bermuda in 2003 I had hoped that, master’s degree in hand, I and my black peers would have a home in the business community. Yet, even those of us who have university degrees and advanced certifications struggle the 2 Bermudas.

For many Bermudians, struggle is something that has always defined us. Others in our community don’t understand it at all. This is one of the fundamental divides we see between the Two Bermudas, and, to say that race doesn’t play a role in this divide is to lack a fundamental understanding of our country’s history.

Recently, I discussed the need for reforming many aspects of our society, including tax and immigration policies, in order to address the problem of our Two Bermudas. The man I spoke with said, “Everywhere in the world has the haves and have nots. That will always be the case. The answer is not to destabilise the country.”

How sad that the introduction of a remedy is immediately met with the accusation to destabilise. How sad that we are content to remain in a world of unfairness, so that we don’t have to answer the hard questions and face the uncomfortable truths.

Bermuda has always been an expensive place to live, but somehow we managed to get by, typically by being able to hold two or more jobs with sustainable salaries. We had a strong middle class and on either side a small group of wealthy elites and an equally sized population of the marginalised and disaffected.

Today, we have the highest cost of living in the world and a Bermuda with polarised wealth and growing numbers of the unemployed and impoverished. What we have today is the conundrum of two Bermudas and all that this entails. It is an uncomfortable place to be because it brings into clear vision the fragility that is Bermuda today and it threatens the very economic growth, social stability and progress I have no doubt we all want.

Alongside this economic divide, in fact woven into it, is the equally problematic racial divide. In large measure – although not exclusively so – this divide is connected to the economic disparity in ways all too familiar to many Bermudians. Bermuda is far too small to have the persistence of such divisions and we, collectively, have a responsibility to fix them to help create a stronger Bermuda.

Allow me a few moments to express in real, every day terms what this all means. We are a strong international financial services centre with billion dollar companies and highly paid CEOs. This has been a large part of our success and it sustains us.

However, in our two Bermudas we have the wealthy executives whose single month rent, is more than many Bermudian’s yearly take home pay, and then we have the young single mother who struggles daily in a low paid job while living in poverty. Her paycheck from working at a hotel for a 28 hour work week, after deductions was $175 or $6.25 an hour. $6.25 an hour is less than the federal minimum wage in the United States. In Bermuda that is an impossible wage for anyone to live on, especially if you are a mother trying to provide for a child.

Expanding income inequality is the nature of today’s world; these stories are played out in countries all over the globe. The nuance in Bermuda is that this wide divide confronts people daily. Bermuda does not have the luxury of the separation of large estates and isolated communities. The boy whose mother cannot afford to feed him breakfast rides the bus past the businessmen eating at a Hamilton restaurant, champagne glasses in hand, toasting their latest success.

Perhaps to soften the blow, slavery is referred to as a historical crime. However, a crime with generational victims can never be just historical. Especially when, by failing to redress the generational inequities of an entire system built off the back of slavery, we perpetuate the same principles and ideologies that created that system in the first place. When the status quo benefits some to the continued disadvantage of others, it is not a historical crime, but an ongoing crime.

Race has long been the elephant in the room in Bermuda. Our history has made it such. And it seems that whenever we devolve into more challenging times – whether they are economic, political or social – our continuing divisions are torn open time and time again.

We are no doubt experiencing such challenging times today. But racism, racial discord and racially inflammatory language have no place in Bermuda. Each and every one of us in positions of leadership – of any variety – in my view, have a social responsibility to dismantle the institutions which perpetuate racism and move us to a place where, as Bob Marley once said: “The colour of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes.”

This is the Bermuda I want to see built for the sake of our children. Some people say today that they “don’t see colour.” By saying that, they deny our history, our experience and who we are. Bermuda must strive toward non-racialism, but to claim we are there today is to deny the realities of overt, subtle and structural racism that still exists here in 2017 on our island – If the Bank of Bermuda Foundation can see it – why do many continue to deny it?

40 years ago, In 1977, following the riots, Dame Lois Browne-Evans said to the international press, “We have swept a backlog of sociological, economic and political inequities under a manicured façade to fester.”

With megayachts now arriving daily and international eyes on Bermuda, the facade seems more important than ever. Yet how can we create paradise when poverty meets privilege at every mark?

The answer is in the ABCs. I have addressed the “A” of acknowledgement, but what comes next?

In 2007, the Bermuda Race Relations Initiative launched The Big Conversation. Ten years later we have seen CURB embark on the Truth & Reconciliation Conversations. Without this, Bermuda would not be in the position to acknowledge the struggle we face and I commend all participants and organisers for the time and effort they have committed to our collective well-being.

We must now move beyond acknowledgement to “B” – Building a better Bermuda that works for all and not just for some.

We must build a Bermuda that dismantles racism, by identifying and challenging those who perpetuate it.
We must build a Bermuda that values all our children, by properly resourcing our public schools and our public school teachers.

We must build a Bermuda that creates real opportunities for Bermudians, by implementing fair immigration policies that promote employment and stimulate economic growth.

We must build a Bermuda that provides social support to our young people to prioritise crime reduction over crime punishment.

We must build a Bermuda that provides our next generation with the opportunity to make better decisions so that they can have a real choice between a life of crime and a life of progress.

We must build a Bermuda where entrepreneurs who cannot go to their parents for a loan, but who have a great idea and the drive to execute – have access to capital to innovate and create jobs.

And we must build a Bermuda where the cost of living does not force Bermudians out of Bermuda.
However – It is only through looking at – and understanding – the root causes of the problems, that we can identify the solutions.

To build the Bermuda we need, we must dismantle the Two Bermudas we have.

How do we achieve this?

In my view this cannot be done without the “C” of Collaboration. We frequently talk of bipartisan reform, but by “collaboration” I do not just mean by political parties, this buy-in must extend beyond Government and take place across all segments of our community.

From community clubs to social events, from big business to cultural initiatives to community service organisations like Rotary, across the board we must look at how together we can achieve our goals to build the Bermuda that benefits us all. True change cannot happen unless both of two Bermuda recognise that for our country to advance, for our country to unify, and for our country to progress, we must take real action to create one Bermuda.

My speech today is a call to both the privileged and to the disaffected.

Bermuda can only move forward if the traditional, rigid divisions of race and privilege can be replaced with a movement based on shared values, shared challenges and a shared commitment to equity, diversity and inclusion. Recognising that change, while uncomfortable for some in the short term, in beneficial to Bermuda in the long term.

It is clear that the issues of joblessness, inequity, access to quality education and the struggle to keep pace with the rising cost of living impacts the black community deeply.

Yet, with Bermuda slipping back into recession…and with Bermudian jobs being lost for another year while non-Bermudian jobs have increased for 2 years in a row…more and more of our white Bermudian citizens are beginning to lose ground when it comes to jobs, opportunity, access to quality education and are beginning to understand that the elite and privileged are moving forward together and leaving many Bermudians behind.

The failure to utilise the knowledge, skill and ideas of all Bermudians is holding back Bermuda from reaching our full potential, giving our children more incentive to leave the land of their birth and making more Bermudians of all races and ages feel left out and left behind.

It is clear that we must expand educational and economic opportunity by investing in a national training and retraining strategy designed to move our people, all our people, from unemployment to employment; from poverty to the middle class; and from employees in dead end jobs to management and yes even to entrepreneurship; and we must take steps to provide more access to capital for those who do not have intergenerational wealth to rely on.

Government must take the lead by introducing Equality Impact Assessments as part of our legislative and policy development process to ensure that our laws and policies are neither exacerbating nor adding to an already divided and unfair society. Our existing laws must be strengthened, enforced and give comfort to every Bermudian that inequity has no place in our country.

Government must also take the lead by ensuring that businesses that are effectively promoting and implementing more diverse and inclusive work environments where Bermudians of all races are being hired, trained and promoted are rewarded. And government must also take the lead in ensuring that at every level of society, racism and discrimination is neither condoned nor profitable.

We must work with international business to create a level playing field rather than a compensation and promotion system that favours the expatriate community, leaving educated Bermudians feeling frustrated and disenfranchised.

I would be remiss if I did not address one particular policy issue that defines the two Bermudas. It is the issue of Pathways to Status. This touches so many in our community because Pathways to Status mirrors historic immigration policies rooted in racism; policies that were intended to manipulate the electorate.

Policy prescriptions like Pathways are the wrong policies and instead of healing the divide only serve to exacerbate the divide. Bermuda can collaborate on immigration reform that instead of exposing old wounds, works together on a solution that grows our economy and our population while ensuring that Bermudians come first.

But this is not just a job for the government. As a community we must begin to display more than tolerance, more than respect…we must develop greater empathy for each other and a better recognition that the values we share and the commitment to a better Bermuda are greater than what divides us.

Collectively, we must move to a place in society where talking about race is not viewed as perpetuating a problem but it is understood as what is necessary to work towards the solutions to this vexatious issue which has held Bermuda back from the progress it can make.

When I was a child, I like many Bermudians often heard that the racial divide would fix itself. Perhaps when the older generation passed from this earth.

Individuals of my parents’ generation often heard the same thing.

Just this week on social media I saw the same hope expressed that the issues of racism and inequity will fix themselves once yet another generation fades away.

How many more generations must keep hoping that the next generation will fix this divide?

How long will it take for us to realise that this divide isn’t fixing itself, fast enough, thoroughly enough or strongly enough?

I believe Bermuda can do better.

I know we can face this long-standing divide and take real action to address it.

I believe that building a Bermuda of inclusion, empathy and opportunity for all is the only way forward and the only hope for a better Bermuda.

It is the responsibility of the leaders of our country, whether they be political, business, or clergy to do what is necessary to turn 2 Bermudas into one Bermuda. Everyone of you Rotarians can play a part:

The rotary website says: “Rotary is a global network of 1.2 million neighbors, friends, leaders, and problem-solvers who come together to make positive, lasting change in communities at home and abroad.”

The Bank of Bermuda Foundation has acknowledged the problem, and has taken action to make positive lasting change.

It is my view, that building one Bermuda is a positive lasting change for our Island home, and it is my hope that just like the Bank of Bermuda Foundation, Hamilton Rotary will play a large part in moving our island from a tale of two Bermudas to a reality of a truly unified Island – where we have One Bermuda.

Thank you for listening.

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Comments (40)

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  1. bdaboy says:

    Dude, try whistling a different tune…this one is old, outdated, and only makes you look like a bigger fool.

  2. Onion Juice says:

    The Truth is an offence but not a sin, but this is not an isolated situation.
    de Historical reality manifest into present folly.

  3. Swordfish says:

    The PLP and its race rhetoric is one of the reasons why we have a racial divide.

    • Rod of Correction! says:

      Swordfish, having made that statement you have got to be an Edomite. If this is true, then you and yours are the inventors and perpetrators of the racial divide, and you never want to accept credit for it.

  4. priviledged says:

    I agree that there are 2 Bermudas. But the issue of racism has been confused with that of nepotism. You are not privileged because you are white – you are privileged because of the family you are born into (yes, many of which are white, for HISTORICALLY racist reasons).

    As long as we keep viewing it as an issue of racism, racism actually gets worse as those who feel discriminated against “retaliate”. But the root of the problem is missed.

    Go ahead and tell me I’m wrong, and watch your world never change.

    • Joe Bloggs says:

      Thank you for your (correct) clarification.

      That said, even recognising that the issue is socio-economic rather than purely racial, it must also be appreciated that most (not all) of the poor and under-educated in Bermuda are of one race. That gives the appearance of racial inequality.

    • CT says:

      Try replacing “privilege” with “advantage”. I am a white Bermudian from a working class background and even I can see that I am advantaged because of my race. Privilege doesn’t mean solely financial, in this context. I am advantaged in different settings because of my race. There are many good youtube and TED talks on this point that I encourage you to view.

    • 2ways says:

      Could not have said it better.

  5. Southpro says:

    Mr. Burt with all due respect and in my opinion your version of the two Bermuda’s not right. What i have learned is that nothing is given to you and you have to work for everything. Nothing is given to you and you have to work at making yourself better including education. If this means some sacrifice so be it – bling bling clothes, trips, name brand handbags etc. etc.
    Having a child as a single parent will also saddle you down making it very difficult to get ahead. If you can change you voting populace to think about the choices they make they will succeed.
    While it might be nice to think that living wages will change everything if your mindset is not to better yourself it is all for nought.
    A living wage will only increase the cost of doing business so nothing changes as everything is relative. A business needs to make money to survive and continue.

    • I can't believe it. says:

      South Pro, that is the sick mentality that exists here in Bermuda. You think that every black person want a hand out and we are uneducated and want to be employed without the required qualifications. That is not the case. We have a deep racial problem here in Bermuda

    • Real Talk(original) says:

      Wow. So many racist assumptions I don’t even know where to start…

      Yet no comment on the fact that a black male college graduate makes less than his white male counterpart.

      • Cow Polly says:

        Southpro expressed his/her opinion and you call him/her a racist? Isn’t this the whole point of the ABC’s Mr Burt is talking about – you are gonna have to allow people to express their opinions and then challenge or educate them. Don’t just call them a racist.

        As for your other comment, a black male college graduate trumps a white woman regardless of education. Southpro didn’t mention that either. Open your eyes and try to contribute to the conversation.

        • PBanks says:

          I think there are valid arguments to throw against Southpro’s initial comment, namely the assumption that those struggling are spending money on “bling bling clothes, trips, name brand handbags”. He/she has equated ‘two Bermudas’ to ‘hard workers vs not-so-hard workers’, which is patently false and feeds into stereotypes.

          But you’re right in that meaningful conversation needs to be honest and contain some degrees of empathy at the very least.

        • Real Talk (original) says:

          “Nothing is given to you and you have to work at making yourself better including education.”

          And yet the examples provided referenced EDUCATED people. Education aside, black Bermudians are still paid less than their white counterparts. Black females are the most educated group in Bermuda and still paid less. Kinda blows the argument about education out of the water, no?

          And yes. Black people should just stop buying bags and having kids out of wedlock. That will see them paid on par with their white counterparts. Nope, nothing racist about the assumptions made in that statement at all. *eyeroll*

          • Politricks says:

            Unless you are comparing salaries being paid within the same company then it is a misleading metric/statistic.

            Not all companies pay the same and not all degrees are worth the same.

            A person with a business or actuarial degree will always make more then someone with a basic liberal arts degree.

            The vast majority of the civil service is comprised of Bermudians and thus civil servants with degrees are generally paid less than their private sector counterparts.

            There’s a lot of variables at play and using that statistic in a silo does not tell the whole story.

            Now if you can show the pay discrepancies between equally educated black and white Bermudians working in the same position (or same level) in the same company then you have verifiable evidence of blatant discrimination.

            • Real Talk (original) says:

              And yet the pay disparity due to gender is accepted without such requests for further statistical support…

    • 2ways says:

      Spot on; too many Bermudians are living way beyond their means and the worse part is that they don’t even know it and certainly won’t acknowledge it. Not about what you make, it’s about what you save. Live simple, build wealth and then enjoy it. Not live extravagantly and then try to build wealth when you’re nearing retiring age.

  6. Janice says:

    Most of these issue are fact and true but the PLP under this guy will never fix any of them why when they get on the gravy train they end up on the well off sector they will never fix anything racial as the are so anti equality and so divisive and this is proven fact

  7. Janice says:

    P.S. this guy voted against marraige equality he is one of the shameful 21

    • Not An Ignorant Fool says:

      @Janice I would like to state, the time wasted in this comment, his vote against same sex marriage has nothing to do with the speech made at hand. Once again OBA followers trying to black mail PLP right minded people, with garbage and not looking at things that actually matter.

      • Janice says:

        It has everything to do with it he is an unprogressive person period pushing a life could be wonderful idea that will never be achieved by this member of the shameful 21 or the PLP party because it’s all for them by them ……

  8. wahoo says:

    Wow. I am speechless…

  9. Warlord says:

    This was at the Hamilton Rotary.I wonder how many actually listened or were shaking there heads thinking that this guy could be the next premier.
    PS out of his depth I think.

    • Legalgal says:

      Well done on expressing this view. But this “2 Bermuda’s” also exists within a Bermuda Bubble of entitlement, nepotism and an expectation that you can milk the IB cow while flogging it and denegrating “guest” workers. You have decided not to tax or have a proper welfare system, to set high rentals, food prices etc. The resultant hyperinflationary effect when it pops will be painful. But necessary.

  10. Yes sir says:

    What a muppet

  11. I wonder? says:

    So which side of the two bermudas do you consider yourself and your private school education to be a part of Mr. Burt?

  12. Curious George says:

    And there you have David Burt’s 18 minute TED Talk.

  13. cpm says:

    plp
    race race race always

  14. aceboy says:

    Just so people are aware, Rotary Clubs are SUPPOSED to be completely non political. Tyrell managed to get Burt as a speaker for political reasons and is USING the Club to do it. He knows better and that is why the attendance was probably so low. Typical PLP. It is OK when THEY do it.

  15. sandgrownan says:

    Race, really, is all he has – we know his economic record and that of the PLP doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

  16. Kathy says:

    If Bermuda wants to tackle the racial divide, the first place we need to start is in the school system. We need to copy what Finland did. Disallow the private school system and all children must go to school together in small classroom sizes (no more than 10) with a racial mixture equal to the population mixture 6 black, 4 white.

    Teachers need to hold Masters and Doctorate degrees and be highly qualified. There is no reason why our children should not culturally grow up together. You have to start with kindergarten going forward (not change the system we have now for older children). THIS is the only way will will fix our racial problems in Bermuda.

    There is no reason why all children in Bermuda should not have the same educational opportunities. Right now, our school system is so racially divided it is disgusting! Ask a parent with a child in a private school in Bermuda if they want to change them to the public school and there will be a resounding NO!

    Everyone knows that there is an OBVIOUS difference in the opportunities and environment where the majority black children receive education vs. where the minority white children have. We have to FIX this issue or our racial divide will only grow further!

  17. Jess says:

    Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the report published by the Bank of Bermuda Foundation mentioned in the fourth paragraph?

  18. hmmm says:

    Sadly the PLPs messaging is off and this campaign rhetoric will fall flat on the swing voters they need to vote them in.
    Most people don’t want to hear about race, they know there is a racial divide. People want to know what you are going to do to bridge the divide and provide them with economic opportunities and a better society.
    Mr. Burt seems to be well able to express the problem but is clueless as to what the solution is.

  19. La-Verne Symonds says:

    It is all people like you who will say his message is off. It is simply the facts and what is what is happening in Bermuda today. Get over it!

  20. La-Verne Symonds says:

    It is always people like you who will say his message is off. It is simply the facts and what is what is happening in Bermuda today. Get over it! This message surely isn’t off the campaign rhetoric, people’s eyes are wide open to what Bermuda has become.

  21. Trump supporter says:

    Bermuda looked beautiful today, 2 ships in dockyard,1 in st Joe and I in town.
    2 bermudas,, we have ships but were told they where all to big for our ports…

    • aceboy says:

      Horsehoe Bay was RAMMED today. Haven’t seen anything like it since kite flying day. Wednesday of a work week. Those weren’t Bermudians down there.

  22. Rocky5 says:

    To me this is a very negative, pessimistic, divisive speech. There is no attempt to try to bring Bermudians together, to try to find common ground to build from, to try to find sensible ways to improve economic or educational opportunities, no vision of a better future – all pessimism because PLP want to keep the races apart because if they EVER come together the PLP is finished. No encouragement, no passion for a better, caring Bermuda through tolerance, hope, honesty, integrity, trust, love, respect, kindness, accountability. Just the same OLD predictable PLP.