“Measured Research” On Same Sex Marriage
“It is my belief that sober, measured research is needed in order to show that we are considering the impact of this issue on the whole community,” Minister of Community, Culture and Sports Pat Gordon Pamplin said this evening at the same sex marriage information session.
The Ministry of Community, Culture and Sports is hosting their first public information sessions regarding same sex marriage this evening [Sept 28], with the second to follow at 6pm on Thursday [Oct 1] at at Bermuda College North Hall.
The public information sessions follow after a petition was presented to Government in May 2015, with the petition having attained some 2,500 signature.
Minister Gordon Pamplin said, “In May of this year, I was presented with a petition requesting that the government consider implementing legislation to give effect to same sex marriage.
“I promised that I would consider the petition and that I would present it to my colleagues for discussion and determination of next steps respecting the petition.
“Almost instantaneously with the breaking news of the receipt of the petition, the public discourse by way of contributions to the blogs of the various media confirmed that this very emotive subject elicited very strong views within the community.
“There were those who believe that it is a no-brainer; that no one’s rights ought to be undermined and therefore legislation should be instantly amended.
“On the other hand, there were those who believed we should not consider making such a move to amend the legislation, as it would offend their own belief system.”
“We have been questioned as to why we are addressing this matter now, in light of other pressing matters facing the community. On the other hand, there are questions as to what has taken us so long to address this matter.
“It is my belief that sober, measured research is needed in order to show that we are considering the impact of this issue on the whole community.
“In any country, citizen’s voices must be heard and tonight we want to hear from you,” the Minister added.
The Minister’s full opening remarks follow below:
Good evening ladies & gentlemen
In May of this year, I was presented with a petition requesting that the government consider implementing legislation to give effect to same sex marriage.
As was stated at the handing over of that petition, individuals who either had attained, aspired toward, or who were sympathetic to that marital status recognition in and by Bermuda, felt that human rights were not being recognized or upheld.
I promised that I would consider the petition and that I would present it to my colleagues for discussion and determination of next steps respecting the petition.
Almost instantaneously with the breaking news of the receipt of the petition, the public discourse by way of contributions to the blogs of the various media confirmed that this very emotive subject elicited very strong views within the community.
There were those who believe that it is a no-brainer; that no one’s rights ought to be undermined and therefore legislation should be instantly amended. On the other hand, there were those who believed we should not consider making such a move to amend the legislation, as it would offend their own belief system.
What was apparent was that there was little information that had been publicly discussed that could be used to either support or reject the petition. As such, I tasked the Department of Human Affairs section of my Ministry to undertake an exercise to gather information that could be used as the impetus to engage public discussion on this issue.
Tonight’s sharing of that information has been designed to do just that. The department has done this preliminary research and will present the results of such research.
I stress that this is not exhaustive, and there may be further information that has been obtained by others. It is my hope that once the presentation is completed; we will be able to have contributions to a discussion that can be respectfully engaged.
It is my intention to listen, to allow our technical officers to distill any further concerns that might be expressed, create further investigation if it is determined that the need has arisen, and to have further meaningful public discourse around this issue.
Let me reiterate that I have always been quite forthright with the petitioners that this process to address the petition will not happen overnight; it may cause frustration, but it must be methodical.
We have been questioned as to why we are addressing this matter now, in light of other pressing matters facing the community. On the other hand, there are questions as to what has taken us so long to address this matter.
It is my belief that sober, measured research is needed in order to show that we are considering the impact of this issue on the whole community.
In any country, citizen’s voices must be heard and tonight we want to hear from you. The opinion polls are fine but tonight we are here to share information and to get your input on this subject. The responsibility of governance is to consider concerns expressed by all segments of the community.
Some of the correspondence that I have received articulating some very heart-rending experiences gives me personal comfort that as a government, we are doing the right thing to bring this issue to the fore and to receive the feedback from the community in which we live.
I do not think that it is ever the wrong time to consult with you, the public. This engagement this evening along with the meeting to follow is engaging in that consultation.
With those few brief remarks, I will invite my Technical Officer, Jane Brett and Policy Analyst Kleita Pitcher to commence the presentation, after which, our moderator, Ms. Aderonke Wilson will guide the deliberation.
Thank you
There is no right not to be offended but there are human rights.
If gay marriage offends you then don’t get one.
Greek Culture.
Onion Juice…You are a supporter of that sicko who just got put on the stop list.
You included his name in one of your posts in a recent article.
Worse than that, he praise him and tried to compare him actual civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King and Dr. Gordon.
I am. They put him on the stop list because they can’t handle the truth it burns them. Bermuda must wakeup and look at the future you will leave for the children. This is one of the reason adults don’t get no respect anymore look at what your teaching the kids think people think.
Look on the net the video prof of what he claims is there.
I welcome him to Bermuda. Those who ban him don’t speed for all of Bermuda they speak for the 1%
Any links to this proof you speak of? Any at all?
News flash for you, what your beloved intellectual Irritated Genie has done to history is; treated it like a cob of corn, eaten it, digested it and c%^??€! it out onto a plate and served it to you… and you be like, “sweet, corn”… yup, history is in there, but he has covered it in…
I’ve watched some of those videos now, and it doesn’t take a lot of intelligence to see how much BS he lacquers onto the truth in order to justify his own weakness to rise above the ease of hatred, it isn’t a war he predicts, it is a war he wants because without it, he will have wasted his life in pointless hatred of those who have the strength to rise beyond the worst humanity has to offer. And just to show you how completely empty so much of his assertations are, enjoy this reading list on reality:
Homosexuality is not un-African, by Sylvia Tamale, Aljazeera America
Homosexuality un-African? The claim is an historical embarrassment, by Eusebius McKaiser, The Guardian
If you say being gay is not African, you don’t know your history, by Bisi Alimi, The Guardian
The idea that African homosexuality was a colonial import is a myth, by Bernardine Evaristo, The Guardian
Debunking the myths: Is Homosexuality, Bisexuality or Transsexualism Un-African or Unnatural? by Yemisi Ilesanmi, FreeThoughtBlogs.com
Boy-Wives and Female Husbands – Studies of African Homosexualities, Edited by Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe Palgrave for St. Martin’s Griffin
Heterosexual Africa?: The History of an Idea from the Age of Exploration to the Age of AIDS, by Marc Epprecht, New African Histories
As several of these articles and books concluded, Europeans didn’t bring homosexuality to Africa, they brought intolerance of it
Man I cannot wait until your generation of narrow-minded imbeciles dies out. Bermuda is going to be a much better place.
Pat if anyone can do this you can. With your accounting background I hope you are able to keep this as much fact based as possible and also ensure that people share their opinions and views in a respectful polite manner.
Good luck and I wish you well on this important dialogue.,
Bermuda is sooooooooooooo behind the times in many,many things in this fast moving internet world,whatever you say on the internet can be seen across the world in seconds,so beware Bermuda,you are being watched…and read!
Well, if you want us to emulate some of the other countries who have legalized gay marriage, we can, but it doesn’t seem to me like they have the answers, or even know how to solve their own social and economic problems, let alone ours. The U.S economy is a house of cards, propped up by weak Fed policies, and they have no idea how to fix it, their idols are Nicki Minaj and Kim Kardashian, and American have gone so far in the direction of “protecting human rights” that you can’t even sneeze without offending someone on Facebook or Twitter. UK and Europe aren’t much better, they can’t solve Greece’s problems (other than having one or two wealthy countries like Germany continually throwing money at it – because THAT works), they can’t solve the refugee crisis, and no one is taking measures to protect workers from the thousands of job that are going to be extinguished in the UK in the next few years. Even Canada can’t get it right, poverty and affordable housing are actually big problems there, and the taxes are a major burden on families.
So when the people in these countries get their own house sorted out, then they can start telling us what to do, until then maybe they should work on those problems instead of spending their time watching and worrying about what Bermuda does.
Nice little rant, but neatly moves the goalposts and doesn’t address the core issue discrimination. Why do you wish to discriminate?
What is the discrimination?
We have laws that discriminate against those who believe in and want to marry multiple people – polygamy.
We have laws that discriminate against those who use marijuana for religious (not only to smoke it) or medical use.
We have laws against two consenting adults hooking up by prostitution – where this is legal in other countries.
The issue is what is the ‘so-called’ discrimination – and it mostly comes back to legislating morality.
Reaching.
It would be reaching if it wasn’t the truth.
Please let me vote on it .
Vote? On a human rights issue?!
One’s sexual disposition is not a human rights issue. How is it a human rights issue? ‘Love’ is not the answer.
It’s like skin colour. Are you OK with discrimination based on skin colour?
You’re not serious? I am not going to even begin comparing this to skin colour.
Just think about it. Skin Colour? Really!! Wow!! No!! Try Again!!
It’s discrimination, plain and simple. You should compare it. Do you agree with interracial marriage? Why?
You want to discriminate based on sexual orientation. It’s no different than discriminating on another attribute, sex, skin colour…you name it.
It is very offensive and very disrespectful comparing what a person decides to do – engage in ‘same-sex’ to a person’s race, a part of their DNA, that gives them their history that transcends generations. I can go deeper into this. It is not right to even compare ‘sex’ to race. This is the last comment I’m making on this point because it is so so wrong on many levels it is giving me a headache thinking about the ignorance on race which is so sacred to a person.
How about religion? Is it offensive to compare religious persecution to racism? After all, it’s a comparison between what someone chooses to do and what someone is…
Also, your claim seems to indicate that people choose to be gay. Care to back that up with actual evidence?
I doubt you have the mental capacity to understand.
Interesting that racism and slavery are mandated in the Bible. Noodle of that one if you can.
Obvious your “We” in “We the people” doesn’t include all the people.
How about religion (or lack thereof)?
For the millionth time, people don’t choose to be gay.
Prove it. I can find many scientific studies that people are not ‘born this way.’ Studies also done by homosexuals. This is a very weak argument. It is not true.
Evidence that it’s not true? Or is that only for other people?
Also, the point is moot, as it being a choice or not is irrelevant. Personal choices are protected.
The point is moot as you put it. That is why I don’t mention this point first in my case. It was hmmm and others use the ‘born this way’ as some moral justification. It is a false statement often repeated trying to pass it off as being the truth. The fact is this is not true or even accurate.
And what do you mean personal choices are protected? There are a lot of personal choices that are against the law or not protected.
At what point did you choose to be heterosexual? I was born heterosexual. So you are saying you could choose to be homosexual and be attracted to the opposite gender?
On another front, people do choose their religion. Yet, people are not able to discriminate on that grounds. I am an atheist, yet I am still allowed to get married to someone I love if I should so choose. Why should homosexuals be denied this opportunity just because the person they love is of the same gender.
As have been said before, if you don’t agree with gay marriage then don’t get one.
Our Heavenly Father – Jehovah M’Kaddesh(The Lord who sanctifies), Lord of all mankind has given us many guidelines to govern ourselves.
Those who believe in God, and accept HIS Holy Word/ The Bible, the following biblical texts and counsel’s are being respectfully submitted:
> St. Mark 10: 6 – “But from the Beginning of the creation, God made them Male and Female.” KJV
> Verse 7 – “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife.” KJV
> Leviticus 18: 22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is abomination.” KJV
> Leviticus 20: 13 – “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination… KJV
> Romans 1: 26 – “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections, for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.” KJV
> Verse 27 – “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another. Men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence (results of willful disregard of God’s law) of their error which was meet.” KJV
> I Corinth. 7: 2 – “To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” KJV
> Romans 12: 2 – “Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” KJV
God LOVES The Sinner, not the sinful act (s)…. Thus the purpose for HIS commands and instructions to mankind/ humanity to alter our lives accordingly, and not allow such sinful acts.
All the lessons which God has caused to be placed on record in HIS HOLY WORD are for our warning and instruction, they are given to save us from deception. Their neglect will result in ruin to ourselves.
Romans 15: 4 – “For whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”
Our Heavenly Father is God of all, and as believers, we must stand for and share what is right to those who may not know, especially when it comes to unrestrained abominable practices and attempts to over-ride/ dis-regard what the Bible CLEARLY speaks against.
Bermuda/ Our Island Home has been very blessed and covered, by the Divine Hand of protection over the years, and I am sure it is the desire of all for God’s mercy and protection to continue.
Maranatha
Then it is good thing we are a democracy and not a theocracy… plus you may want to be careful as you pick and choose from the bibles, they have other things to say in those verses that we no longer consider to be acceptable at this time as well.
Harry Potter chapter 4: watch out for the stairs, they like to move.
Seriously, Leviticus? So, since we’re on Leviticus let us now remind ourselves of all the other things that are expressly banned under the Law, which technically Christ died to get people out from under as the old law was considered a curse:
-Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1)
-Letting your hair become unkempt (10:6)
-Tearing your clothes (10:6)
-Eating – or touching the carcass of – any seafood without fins or scales (11:10-12) [Sorry lobster fans, the bible has your number].
-Going to church within 33 days after giving birth to a boy (12:4)
-Going to church within 66 days after giving birth to a girl (12:5)
-Having sex with a woman during her period (18:19)
-Having sex with your neighbour’s wife (18:20) [Oh look, adultery... perhaps you should remind all the heterosexuals about this one]
-Reaping to the very edges of a field (19:9) [not too close to the edge now]
Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10)
- Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
-Cross-breeding animals (19:19)
- Planting different seeds in the same field (19:19)
-Eating fruit from a tree within four years of planting it (19:23)
-Trimming your beard (19:27) [You may want to let businesses know who ask employees to trim beards about this one.]
-Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27) [Careful on your next barber/salon visit.]
- Getting tattoos (19:28)
-Working on the Sabbath (23:3)
This isn’t even the full list. So why do you only pick out one part of Leviticus in an attempt to deny what has been ruled to be a right with a single sentence from a book that was written by mortal men and edited several times over the centuries?
If you’re going to quote Leviticus, then by all means don’t forget to follow the rest.
I love it when people take the Bible “a la carte”….
Do you believe that other people should be forced to follow the rules of your religion? If so, would you have a problem with the rules of other religions forced onto you?
You know this argument works both ways, right?
MPP, the argument would work both ways if someone was forcing you to enter into a same-sex marriage. Unless they do, why should everyone else be forced to follow the tenets of your religion?
No, it doesn’t. Not even a little bit. What religion’s rules are being forced on others by marriage equality? What rights are being denied to religious people, based on someone else’s religion?
It’s not the same at all. Not even a little.
Why do people cherry pick the bible to suit their biased beliefs ?
How is he picking the article is own gay marriage he picked out the parts in the bible that speak on homosexuality
The bible also says that Cain, Adam and Eve’s son, married his sister. In fact, Adam and Eve’s direct offspring must in general have been having sex with each other, married or not, in order to “go forth and multiply”.
So people who believe in the bible also seem to believe that incest is no problem.
Frankly, that’s disgusting.
I was there last night. A certain Pastor, 3rd row, kept repeating after every single Pro voice was heard “get out then, go, leave then, we dont need you here.” Firstly, is that anyway for anybody to speak to anybody else? secondly, these are her neighbours and colleagues, her bermudian family. Thirdly, doesnt the bible state (Corinthians I think) that women shouldnt speak the word of god? Can you spell HYPOCRITE????
I cant wait to see this lady again on Thursday. She was vile last night, full of vitriole and disgust. hardly very religious of her.
I and my gay and straight friends were thoroughly disgusted by her attitude.
Name and shame her.
For those that attend her church, then you are a supporter of hate.
huh? Don’t think Cain had many options based on the story,,
just saying.. Note he didn’t marry his brother though,,
Well yes, based on the story. However since the whole story is pure fiction to begin with, it’s all nonsense isn’t it. All this hate is really based on belief in a book that is pure and utter fiction.
BTW, according to the Bible the Garden isn’t the only time when god populated the earth via incest. There’s a little matter of the aftermath of the Flood when the only survivors were Noah and his family.
Because the areas he picks from also lay down various rules for things that we no longer consider acceptable, like how to treat women on their period, how to engage in slavery… If you are going to endorse one thing from the bible as god’s infallible law, you better be ready to say you endorse them all as such. It’s either that or admit that the bible isn’t the be all end for democratic laws.
Keep it to yourself, do NOT force your faith on antone else. Got it?
but aren’t you attempting to force your opinion on the matter onto others by way of your cynical and sarcastic responses?? Respect of positions goes both ways.
No. Not at all. Here’s a deal: All I want, is for those of faith to keep it to themselves. Noone is asking them to “gay” marry” or even like it, but they cannot force their view onto others. They cannot take their faith as a license to discriminate.
So… you totally missed his point.
Au contraire, I’m not discriminating against anyone. I’m not telling someone they must or can’t marry someone because of my faith. I’d like to see some honesty from the religious – admit that it’s faith and that they cannot force it on anyone. And if they do, I’ll meet them at every corner.
So Martha, I see we are again picking what we want from the scripture to suit our needs… Don’t forget that eating shell fish is just as bad if not worse than being gay, and what do we do with all the people that cheat on their husband or wife .. Bring back stoning?
The holy books were written by men who had and articulated their opinion and view on stories . Just as the writers, these books can be interpreted by readers in differnet ways.
Lol – nice troll
you, maranatha, have far too much time on your hands. do you follow all scripture? or just pick and choose which ones seem good to you, to fit your backwards, ‘traditional’ yet ultimately destructive views on life? my guess is the latter, which makes you, like many other people who hide behind and use the bible as an excuse to shy away from being a decent human being, a hypocrite. let love be maranatha, let one another love each other and maybe the world will turn that much smoother. but…no, your bible apparently won’t let that happen, darn the luck!
Do you celebrate the Christmas Season?? Do you buy gifts for your family and engage in festive activities, or do you denounce the season and choose to go to work instead???
i do celebrate it, ‘Impressive’, do you enjoy a shrimp cocktail? because thats mentioned some 40 times more as an abomination than homosexuality in the words of the ‘good’ book. maybe youre wearing two different kinds of fabric today? shame on you! shame! like i said, picking and choosing doesn’t work, the bible is FULL of things that ordinary people who call themselves ‘christians’ do not do.
Here we go again with the selected excerpts.
I love bible thumpers like this throw bible quotes out there to justify their warped reasoning.
So tell me, do you also support the following in the bible:
Leviticus 21:9 – “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.”
I Corinthians 11:3 – “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ,”
Leviticus 12:2 – “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.”
I Corinthians 11:8-9 – “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”
Revelation 2:22-23 – “Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”
Exodus 22:18-20 – “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.”
Judges 19:24-25 – “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.”
I Timothy 2:11-14 – “Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”
Deuteronomy 22:22 – “If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;”
Deuteronomy 22:24 – “Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.”
Ephesians 5:22-24 – “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.”
And lastly don’t forget about:
Leviticus 25:44-46 – However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
The thoughts of the Pope – From his pastoral experience Pope Francis is keenly aware of how gay people are “socially wounded” (his term), and frequently feel that the Church compounds their sense of exclusion and alienation. He says he has often received letters from homosexuals who feel that all the Church does is condemn them. “But the Church does not want to do this,” he says. He reiterates what he said after World Youth Day in July 2013: “If a homosexual person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge… it is not right to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.” Pope Francis goes on to say: “Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person? We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy.”
the bible use to mean something,,,,man written or not it was mans lasts grip on some sort of humanity and decency,
It still does, to people who choose to believe. The rest of us just don’t think we should be forced to follow the rules of someone else’s personal choice of religions.
Most people live honest and decent lives without taking any notice at all of that particular work of fiction.
Yeah I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest it’s the ‘last grip’ on humanity/decency. You can be a decent human being with quality morals without knowing the Bible.
No disrespect but, you dont have to believe in God and the Bible to figure it out.
Do we have dominion over ALL animals and they are not twisted, it just takes common sense.
“Dominion over the animals” is from the bible… So… Yeah.
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Please stop judging me by the standards of you religion cause I don’t judge you by it.
Let me guess? You have never sinned, you waited until your wedding day to have relations with your wife, you have never had sexual thoughts. You cannot judge anybody. If it’s wrong let God be the judge, you are not God. And all you Bermudians who always talk about race, the majority of Bermudians are mixed race. The world is a melting pot. I guess eating pork is a sin too? lol
It is time for all christian. People to take to the streets. On Saturday. And. Sunday. To let this. Government
Know that you stand for the word of. God
I am calling on all are. Ministers to unite and save our island from. It’s sinful and shameful. Ways.
You can’ t be silent. No. More. Amen
frank, please tell us why everyone should obey the rules of your religion. After all, even the major Christian churches don’t agree on the question of same-sex marriage. Some happily perform them …
You really need to work on your sentence structure, particularly the use of full stops.
I echo the words penned above by Maranatha. Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.. Let the will of God be done
Nope
Why do people who extol their religious beliefs only get vocal when it comes to gay rights issues?
Why not address ‘sins’ that are actually harmful? Like child abuse? Murder? Drug abuse? Theft?
Heck, Marantha quotes Corinthians with ““To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.””. Fornication and adultery are commonplace in Bermuda, where’s the outrage on that sin?
Hahaha. So funny and I don’t mean to laugh.
I’m not religious – but if a group was trying to make the ‘sins’ you mention legal and acceptable as a society – ‘Like child abuse? Murder? Drug abuse? Theft?’ I am quite sure, 1,000% certain they would be just as vocal addressing these ‘sins.’
But at a time such as this, when this agenda is at the forefront of public discussions you want them to address other issues and not speak to the morality of this issue.
We have to decide what marriage really means in our society. If it’s a religious sacrament then it makes no sense to condone same-sex ceremonies under a decree which denounces them.
If marriage is just about legality; and acknowledgement; and stability then this is a different debate; and this new globalize do systematic ordering of life style is already so deplete of moral judgement that it would seem absurd to draw the line at same sex unions; especially considering it’s become so accepted today.
Churches perform weddings, not marriages.
In a democracy a marriage is a contract under law that garantees certain legal rights to those that commit to that contract; in a theocracy, a marriage before a deity based on the governing religious principles. Which society do we live in…
If they allow gay marriages and it does not bother me if they do…I would like to see polygamist marriages as well.
Heck let anyone marry anyone or anything they want as long as it is consensual and of age.
Everyone has rights to protect their family and property and allowing the legality of these unions provides assurance under law that families and property are protected.
I am in the “no brainier” camp, however I recognize that others have opposing views. As we all have seen, when this has been introduced in the US and the U.K. (Our main trading partners in both tourism and business), there have been strong feelings on both sides. However, the legislation has been passed. If Bermuda wants to be recognized as an advanced nation of the world – and if we do not, we will never be able to address our debt – then this legislation is needed. I know some will be offended, but people were also offended by interracial marriage in the not too distant past. Treat it like a non-smoker does smoking or a vegetarian does meat eating – don’t participate and limit your involvement with those who don’t share your values, but let them do what is right for them.
Well done Pat in bringing this forward and good luck. Bermuda we have an opportunity to showcase our values of tolerance and join the other nations who have adopted this. Please don’t oppose it.
It is basic human rights people.
Stop the talking about it and make it happen already.
Some people will be for it and others against. Just get it done.
Have you noticed the Nation of Africa does not tolerate it, but Europe promotes it.
Hmmmmm
You are a Irritated Genie follower are you not?
Where is this ‘nation of Africa’? Africa is a continent, not a nation.
Ya and look how “well” africa is doing. Smh,
“The nation of Africa”?
That’s not a thing…
And yet “it” still exists in Africa just like everywhere else….tolerated or otherwise. Unfortunately, unjust persecution still exists everywhere to varying degrees. Even in Bermuda. You ride that horse on here daily O.J.
Have you noticed that the contries in Africa that don’t tolerate gays have only done so after White Evangelical Crhistains who were ‘losing’ their fight in the states came over and started spreading their bile.
Wrong. Gay marriage is legal in South Africa.
What exactly is the “Nation of Africa”?
News flash for you, what your beloved intellectual Irritated Genie has done to history is; treated it like a cob of corn, eaten it, digested it and c%^??€! it out onto a plate and served it to you… and you be like, sweet corn… yup, history is in there, but he has covered it in…
Homosexuality existed in the African ‘Continent’ before the Europeans arrived, and as ‘Boy-Wives and Female Husbands – Studies of African Homosexualities’ concludes; colonialism introduced an intolerance to it and set about ostracizing and banning it, as it was done in Europe at the time.
Here is some readin for you, tolerance enlightens, hatred degrades:
Homosexuality is not un-African, by Sylvia Tamale, Aljazeera America
Homosexuality un-African? The claim is an historical embarrassment, by Eusebius McKaiser, The Guardian
If you say being gay is not African, you don’t know your history, by Bisi Alimi, The Guardian
The idea that African homosexuality was a colonial import is a myth, by Bernardine Evaristo, The Guardian
Debunking the myths: Is Homosexuality, Bisexuality or Transsexualism Un-African or Unnatural? by Yemisi Ilesanmi, FreeThoughtBlogs.com
Boy-Wives and Female Husbands – Studies of African Homosexualities, Edited by Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe Palgrave for St. Martin’s Griffin
Heterosexual Africa?: The History of an Idea from the Age of Exploration to the Age of AIDS, by Marc Epprecht, New African Histories
Actually South Africa has legalized marriage for the LGBTQ Community. Maybe you should research before ASSuming.
Onion Juice has his facts wrong. First of all Africa is not a nation. Secondly, the nation of South Africa with a black population of just over 79% was not only the first country in the world to safeguard sexual orientation as a human right in its Constitution (1997), it also legalized same sex marriages in 2006. South Africa is ahead of most European countries in guaranteeing equal human rights to all its citizens. Hmmmmm.
With respect Minister, there is no “research needed”….if those of faith are offended, let them be offended. Their faith should not, and must not dictate to the rest of us — or do you want a theocracy?
Thank you! I can not understand why other people’s religious beliefs should dictate another person’s life
Exactly! I was very offended at the seminar. People quoting bible verses like everyone in there were Christians. Well not everyone was, but you still think I should abide by your religion. Do I impose my religion on anyone? No.
Dr. how about if you don’t like the change that is coming you leave. After all that is what you were suggesting people of the LGBTQ Community do if they wish to be married and happy. How about we stay and you and your followers leave. Problem solved.
This is not a religious matter. Half the people that attend church are not even Christians….only when it comes to something they do not like then they go and find a scripture about it and rant. Allowing gay marriage will not hurt anyone. You wont even know it is going to happen because you wont be invited.
No one is asking the people that oppose to be forced to carry out weddings. You are aware that you just officiate the ‘ceremony’ right? All I need is Bermuda Govt. to recognize my marriage and issue me a certificate. Thats it. The bible thumpers can continue to be upset and everyone is happy.
Problem Solved.
If it upsets you that much then you must absolutely hate watching news about religious conflicts in the Middle East.
Meanwhile in the real world… This happens everywhere! You’re vainfully naive to make such a comment as if minorities aren’t being persecuted around the world in the name of religion. What rock are you living under? Or should I say on?
The Road to Election 2017
Bermuda was on that road since December 18th 2012, you know how politics here goes.
we will trade gay marriage for legal marijuana . I think that’s a fair trade . you guys wanna be gay and we wanna smoke weed. trade for trade. since Bermuda is so behind as you all say. time for gays to roam free and ganja fi bun
Who is “we”?
Everyone
Thats all we need, mind altering for twisted minds.
Step right up
why not both?
Pretty sure the church bodies have been anti-weed as well, although it probably doesn’t rank as high as gambling and definitely not gay rights.
Man to man is so unjust, children:
Ya don’t know who to trust.
Your worst enemy could be your best friend,
And your best friend your worse enemy.
Robert Nesta Marley
More scripture….I guess.
Yep men can be very mean to each other sometimes!
I don’t know if he’s talking about relationships or politics here…
Since when do we need research to support a human rights decision? Everybody doesn’t have to agree they just have to respect their fellow humans. Lots of decisions are made here that have a significantly higher impact on our lives and we aren’t asked for our input nor is anyone worried about if anyone will be offended. A select few should never have the power to decide is someone is deserving of receiving human rights.
So since when we started respecting other humans, so its an oxymoron for a gay to be a racist.
What on earth are you babbling about?
Ive never met a gay racist…..have you?
Yep. Sadly enough.
There’s ignorance everywhere.
Traditional Marriage is what we all know. The law states that it is only between a man and a woman.. It has been that way for 6000 years. If we are going to change it now, we must accept that there will be ramifications. The push was never for marriage. You only asked for “two words and a coma ,”. Now that you have received this, you are now going all the way for marriage. As it stands, marriage is not a Human Right. For the Government to deny gay marriage, it will not be violating any ones human rights. To go beyond this point, is to allow any and everything.;;; and they will have a just cause to ask, i.e. polygamy could not be stopped. If it means just a change in the Law, than we could legalize just about any thing,but that won’t make it right.
Well, that’s whole pile of stupid right there.
I think the point is absurd myself, but you calling it stupid does the situation no help, and shows you lack the ability to debate with others who don’t think like you, regardless of their views..
There is nothing to debate. If you could reason with the religious, there would be no religious.
They need to be treated with ridicule and contempt. And I demand that right.
Nothing in this post is true.
Can all the religious fanatics leave their imaginary friend at the door please?
To pick and choose scripture to fit your selfish desires is awful… Adults that justify intolerance, hatred, and persecution through their religion are some of the scariest people on earth… There was a time when people used the bible to hold down women and people of color as well. It’s very sad and I’m glad those changes have occurred, but when religion starts to hold a community and nation back, and openly is persecuting a segment of the public that is the definition of the religious extremism!
I hope they NEVER allow gay marriage here. If that’s the life people choose that’s fine but Bermuda is to small to allow this and like someone said, if they can legalize gay marriage then they can legalize weed too. its profitable same way even more lol and plus people will need a mellow head to deal with this type of stuff smh. Its just so sad what the world has come to today where people think having sex with the same sex is ok smdh!!! (IT IS NOT OK) so sad!!! I hope this bill never gets passed and if it does God forbid what is going to happen to this little island of ours.
oh..I thought I’d already read the most stupid comment all day..but this one is now the front runner!
There you go again,
Do you have a reason for it to not be ok, other than your own personal choice of religion?
Can you tell us more, like your reason for not agreeing that people should be allowed to marry anybody they choose? If its another hypocritical bible response…..well……..
What does the size of the country have to do with this particular issue and why would it affect what a government decided to do about it?
I don’t have a problem with the legalisation of weed, so long as it’s regulated in a way similar to alcohol.
Now, if you don’t think having sex with a member of the same sex is okay, then don’t do it. Seriously. I presume there are other sexual practices people do that you don’t think is okay either but I don’t think you’re worried about going into those people’s bedroom and writing laws against it.
And, please, what do you think is going to happen to this island if we legalise same sex marriage? I mean, aside from more people getting married, which I consider a good thing. I mean isn’t love and celebrating committed relationships a good thing?
UGH it SUCKS that people just want the freedom to love one another right??? all that peace and equality and love and laughter…no room for it on this island AMIRIGHT?!?! the bible says so after all!!!
comments by Ayo Kimathi sat night was on point ,,
Scumbag
As a black person, you should only shop at black establishments. In Bermuda, that means starving to death. Enjoy!
You follow that hatemongering sicko. WOW
hatemongering?? Cho,, give it a rest,, Do you read the comments on here when a PLP MP makes a comment or writes an article.. Nothing but bitter, rude and disrespectful comments, full of hate,, but all of a sudden, hate is the topic,, mercy mercy me.
Until 1973 homosexuality was listed as a mental illness in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) of the American Psychiatric Association. Originally listed as a “sociopathic personality disturbance” in the first edition of DSM in 1953, homosexuality was “upgraded” to a mere “sexual deviation” in 1968 with the release of DSM-II.
In 1973, when homosexuality was removed from DSM-II, there was a great deal of controversy about that decision in the psychiatric community ,,,,
And?
I mean, if you’re suggesting that changes in the medical standard should be remain at 1973 levels, there’s going to be a lot of very unhappy people who are going to need to give up on medications and treatments that are now fully accepted practice.
Apparently the OBA intentionally or unintentionally wishes to increase the divisive factions in Bermuda.
We thought it was just the PLP was divisive but now its the OBA lead by the same people that caused the problems in the UBP who were responsible for the past PLP victory.
A white elite who wish to transform traditional Bermuda culture into their own global image. I do not think the majority will ultimately let that happen.
And they ignored to have discussions on everything else.
Makes you wonder who has the power of influence.
Onion juice the topic was same sex marriage why would they change it to something unrelated? We all now what your fantasies for this island are… Attending hate speeches given by people to ties with murder and hatred… There is no right that is made by 2 wrongs, and supporting such violent ideologism will only create more awful violence… If this what you truly want you should be in jail where true criminals belong!
Most of the OBA aren’t White.
How are they white elitists?
Did you go to that Irritated Genie talk?
the OBA is 70/30 Black to white, no????
How can looking into inclusion of a sector our community be described as divisive?
And sometimes traditional culture isn’t a good thing. This is simply the next step in the civil rights movement.
Always love the complete fabrication of so called divisive factions in Bermuda and blaming it on the “white elite”! Please check your facts Cromwell before making such ridiculous and manifestly false statements.
The decision to decriminalise homosexuality (the so-called Stubbs Bill) was subject to a free vote in Parliament and the Stubbs Bill was supported by the following Members of Parliament: The Hon. L Frederick Wade (then leader of the PLP), Dame Lois Browne-Evans (also a leader of the PLP), the Hon Alex Scott (who becamse Leader of the PLP), Dame Jennifer Smith (who became Leader of the PLP, and The Hon. Ewart Brown (who became Leader of the PLP).
And what do all the men and women have in common? They were all major figures in the Progressive Labour Party, and I believe that Dame Lois was without doubt a champion of human rights in Bermuda. I have no doubt that she would fully support not just including sexual orientation in our Human Rights Act, but she would support marriage equality for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
Why are you turning same sex marriage into a racial topic… The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other!!! All Bermudians of any color should be allowed the same rights as the person next to them. I understand change can be scary but it’s necessary.
Minister – let’s phrase this a different way – do not be bullied by the religious. Quite simple, let them have their faith, but they MUST keep it to themselves.
Do churches get any breaks in terms of taxes or other considerations? If they do, please consider revoking those if they continue to meddle in human rights and politics.
How is gay marriage a human rights issue? If I want to walk around naked, is that MY human right to do so, I am sure I will get arrested for indecent exposure, but is MY body and its my human right to walk around half or fully naked? Is it!! where does the line get drawn. Western World Bull!!
Er, no. Whether or not you walk around naked Gina, is your free choice. You can choose to put clothes on.
However whether or not someone is gay, is not a choice. Just like it’s not a choice to be black, or white, or Bermudian, or to be disabled, or to have red hair. It just is.
That shows a massive disconnect in your understanding. Using your example, if you walk around naked, it’s indecent exposure, it affects everyone. Walk around naked at home if you must.
Marriage, in the legal sense, brings with it a whole raft of protections for the couple. Right now, gay couples are denied those protections. This doesn’t affect you one way or the other.
Why do you insist on discriminating against them?
Just like a religious person will reserve their right to take opposition to the views that oppose the ones with have been upheld in their respective cultural history for Generations.
Ask about your great great grandfather; and why he and a society of people would have thought it was “indecent exposure” to be turning up to particular venues with black skin under your clothes.
Walking around naked and being able to have a life with the person you love have nothing in common… You just sound close minded and angry…
Then how about you pack up and move to the east end of the world. May i suggest siria maybe.
Do you really not understand that there are a TONNE of rights granted to a married couple? Rights that are denied to our brothers and sisters and fellow citizens, based solely on people’s personal choice of religion.
Not once have I heard an argument against marriage equality that doesn’t involve the rules of someone’s personal choice of religion being forced onto someone else.
I’m still waiting to hear one. People go strangely silent when asked to provide one.
Well, I for one don’t use religion in my arguments against ‘same-sex’ marriage. It doesn’t make any sense to do so to a bunch of people who do not believe in a God. You can go through my comments on this and previous articles and see I’ve been fairly consistent.
My issue with two people, of the same gender, engaging in ‘same-sex’ is one of morality. What is right and what is wrong. Is having ‘same-sex’ right or wrong. This is what your asking society to recognise and accept by the agenda of same-sex marriage.
The issue of morality is one myself and many others have not only with ‘same-sex’ but other issues of sexuality. I do not believe you need religious morality to determine what is right or what is wrong. Sexual polygamy, sexual incest, sexual prostitution, is all issues of sexual morality. Is it right or is it wrong. After all, that is what many of our laws are all about. Majority legislate morality.
So answer this for me: On What Basis Could Same Gender Sex Be Moral? What is right about same-gender same-sex?
This is separate comment as I do not want it to distract from the comment and question above.
If you don’t believe in a God or higher being, what about from a natural position, the way our body’s have been designed, or from a scientific position. Is same-gender same-sex a form of sexual deviation? Again, On What Basis Could Same Gender Sex Be Moral? What is right about same-gender same-sex?
Can “We the People (1st!!)” please advise on what basis is adultery moral. Forget all of the admonitions in the bible, and the indisputable fact that adultery is expressly forbidden in the Ten Commandments, and the punishment for committing it is death. What should we do with adulterers? Should they be allowed to marry a person other that their married partner (that is the position of the Catholic Church). I have friends and acquaintences who are what I call “serial adulterers” – and some also happen to be regular churchgoers and pillars in the community. On what basis is adultery moral?
For our religious friends who are quoting the bible in their attack on same sex marriage, could you please enlighten us on what the bible says about adultery (please feel free to quote chapter and verse!) , and whether you feel that adulterers should be punished or denied their human rights?
What is your point? Adultery is wrong. You don’t need the Bible to say it is morally wrong.
You can’t use one wrong to justify another wrong. The difference is adultery is a ground for divorce. Meaning it is not morally accepted, meaning it is wrong.
You’re asking is for same-gender same-sex to be accepted as being right. When same-gender same-sex and adultery are both morally wrong.
You choose to deflect from my question by talking about adultery. I talk to the topic at hand. Don’t divert.
Again, On What Basis Could Same Gender Sex Be Moral? What is right about same-gender same-sex?
How is it IMmoral? By what basis is it immoral, if we take religion out of it.
(And, just to address this point, adultery is considered wrong because it can hurt someone in the relationship – not always… Some people don’t have a problem with an open relationship. They’re even still allowed to be married! Imagine that! – marriage equality doesn’t hurt anyone and the ONLY opposition to it is religious, as far as I can see. Oh, and since you’re so focused on the actual ACT of sex… All of the acts you are using as justifications to oppose marriage equality are possible for – and used by! – straight couples, without denying them equal rights!)
What possible reason could it NOT be moral, unless you base it on the rules of a personal choice of religion?
What is “wrong” with marriage equality? What is “wrong” with being gay?
You say to take God out of the equation, then say our bodies have been designed, which is a religious thing.
You can’t just say “this isn’t based in religion” and then use religious arguments to make your point. That’s not how it works.
If you’re going to take religion out of the equation, you actually have to do it!
You have not answered my question:
On What Basis Could Same Gender Sex Be Moral? What is right about same-gender same-sex?
All you have to do is give me a few reasons why same-gender same-sex is morally right.
1) You don’t have to base it on religion. We can list other sexual behaviours which most of us will agree that are wrong and it has nothing to do with religion.
2) Design could be by nature, some people believe nature designed us, not necessarily God. It is called natural selection. If you believe we were created, that is a religious thing as you put it. But all of that is irrelevant. Deigned, created, fell from space, the wind blew us together, it doesn’t matter. You’re swinging on that last comment you made.
On What Basis Could Same Gender Sex Be Moral? What is right about same-gender same-sex? At the end of the day you’re asking to condone same-gender same-sex. It is a question of morality. What is right and what is wrong. Surely since you feel so strongly about it and don’t see why same-gender same-sex is morally wrong, then please give a few reasons why it is morally right.
Wow…
First off, we weren’t designed. Not by nature, not by God.
Secondly, YOU are the one proposing that it isn’t right. That it’s immoral. YOU have to answer the question, not me, because you are putting forth the proposition.
However, to answer your question: it is right because there is nothing wrong with it. It’s not unnatural, it’s not abnormal. It just is. Some people like guys, some like women. It’s that simple. Falling in love or lust or being attracted to someone is not intrinsically immoral in any way. Gay sex isn’t immoral because it’s just sex, no more moral or immoral in and of itself than straight sex. Unless you throw religion into it… Which brings us back to the beginning.
So… Now it’s your turn. Why is it morally wrong?
How is same-gender same-sex is not unnatural.
For one:
Homosexuality is naturally abnormal physically. The human body is anatomically incompatible with same sex expression. Even if one doesn’t believe in God’s existence, rejects creation/design of man, or claims to evolutionary progression, it is a scientific fact there is no physiological compatibility in homosexual copulation. Unless, of course, some perversion is employed to compensate for the anatomical differences. The way same-gender same-sex are forced to express themselves physically, due to the lack of anatomical compatibility, demonstrates the abnormality of the sexuality.
So you think woman-woman is natural, do they compliment each other naturally and physically sexually. Yup, it all natural, right? Man-Man is all natural. Men compliment each other naturally and physically sexually. Yup it is all natural, right? It is not natural, it is abnormal.
But it doesn’t matter. You don’t believe in a God, you don’t believe we were created or nature designed us, you don’t believe in the natural science of the human anatomy that compliment each other, there is nothing I can say or even back up with science that would get you not to change your position but to simply consider arguments from the other side as to why people are legitimately against it. If you don’t have a moral basis of sexuality to start from then there is nothing to debate here, because its ‘just sex.’
You can’t back it up with science beacause there is nothing to back it up. This post was nothing but excuses to poke your nose into other people’s business.
Just because YOU can’t figure out how to make it work doesn’t mean other people can’t. They’ve been doing it for ages! Long before the bible. Folks fit. Folks find ways to make it work. Sometimes, and I know this will shock you, even straight folks use the same means to make it work! If you need some help figuring out how they do it, there are websites you can go to…
You want evidence of compatibility? Here it is:
People have sex. They make love. They bump uglies. Gay straight and everything in between. The evidence of their compatibility is that THEYRE DOING IT! If they weren’t compatible, they, by definition, couldn’t do it. Just because you don’t like it or understand it doesn’t mean that others shouldn’t be… Wait… This is none of your business! What people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is their business, not yours.
Your argument is invalid. Next attempt, please.
Hey bud, being gay is already legal… So I’m not sure what society is being told to do. This is about marriage. And all the benefits that brings to those involved in said marriage. So why don’t you try tell me this: what is wrong about same-gender sex and how does that impact your beliefs on gay marriage? Try not to talk about reproduction as infertile straight folk can already marry. K?
Roughly 500 species of animals engage in homosexual acts. Only one is homophobic.
But why is gay sex “immoral”. Simply because you find the idea “icky”? Or do you have a logical reason?
Hahaha….animals. Animals get married too? They have laws amongst the species. Hahaha. That is funny. Animals. LOL
You can’t claim something is unnatural then when some one show that it happens in nature just dismiss it
Dude does what British bureaucrats do so well; dither.
“Sharia law is bad”
“Don’t make any laws that conflict with my religious beliefs”
“Discrimination is bad”
“Ban same sex marriage”
All you people who always talk about religion. Isn’t one of the 10 Commandments: Thou Shall not kill? So why have people been killed because of there sexual orientation, having sex before or outside of marriage, or because they had sex with someone of a different race?
Race is a made up word anyway. If I remember correctly, we are all the human race. Our pigmentation, hair style, eye colour originates from whether our ancestors came from a warm or cold climate.
The Natural Fights against the Unnatural….Sad
At the height of every powerful empire homosexuality was rampant. That is right before the empire crumbles…
This Homosexual agenda is designed to breakdown the Judaic-Christian family model.
Btw…If this was about human rights, shouldn’t the Rasta man have the right to use marijuana…I mean if this is all about human rights, let it be about human rights across the board.
Stop picking and choosing to line up with the Global agenda. Bermuda was another world because we didn’t conform to what was going on outside of Bermuda. Sadly the quote “Bermuda is another world” is fast dying. Bermuda is now just like the rest of the world and will receive their just do judgment as well.
Any evidence of your claims?
History is my evidence son. Do your research.
So, no, then. Got it. Your claims can be dismissed as nothing more than hateful nonsense, based on nothing but your own delusions. Cool.
The Greek empire. Roman Empire. Babylonian empire. Nazi Germany at the height of their power. Must I go on. Do your own research and stop with all your hollow comments which hold no weight. I don’t feel challenged by your comments in the least bit. It is you who are uneducated about the world’s historical events.
See, what you’re missing is that the burden of proof is on you, the person making the claim. “Do your own research” is not an ok response.
And you’ve shown absolutely no proof that the acceptance of homosexuality has ANY sort of bearing on the downfall of those civilizations. Correlation does not equal causation. So, I ask again: do you have ANY proof of your claim, or can we just dismiss it as baseless?
Oh, and Nazi Germany was decidedly ANTI-gay, and was brought down by… You know… Losing WWII… So… What exactly are you bringing that up for to support your claim?
they were anti gay when it came to some gays. They were down with other gays.
That’s like saying “slave owners were down with some black folks” means that slavery wasn’t bad. It’s a ridiculous claim!
I’m not well versed in history but this is the first time I’ve ever heard of Nazi Germany being toppled as a result of homosexuality.
‘family model’ – tell me, how many heterosexual people have had divorces in their lives? it seems to me that youre the one picking and choosing
Why would the divorces have anything to do with what I said..SMH
I said it before n I’d say it again. Gays will be getting married in Bermuda before the government decriminalize marijuana!
And? How are the two topics related in any way?
Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Romans 1:26-28 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 1 Timothy 1:10-11 The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. For individuals who call themselves Christians and live lives that go against the word of God and call yourselves “good Christians you are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Yeshua is not looking for good Christians, he is looking for those who are doing his Father’s will. There is a great deception going on in the world today. They want you to believe it is about human rights and equality, that is a deception straight from the gates of hell. There are two things that the Creator God instituted from the beginning of time the Sabbath and marriage and both of these 2 institutions will be attacked during this time of great deception. Also the bible states Matthew 7:16 you shall know them by their fruits. Study not just read the word of God and it will be very easy to detect the wolves in sheep’s clothing. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved unto God a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
Keep it to yourself.
Yep. And you can believe that all you want.
The thing is: no one else HAS to believe that.
Do you think that other people should have to follow the rules of your personal choice of religion?
If so, would you be ok being forced to follow the rules of someone else’s religion?
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Please stop judging me by the standards of you religion cause I don’t judge you by it.
“The Truth shall set you free” has gone to a great deal of trouble to quote the bible and point out that lying with a male as with a woman is an “abomination” I presume there is not a single word in the bible to say that a woman lying with a woman is an “abomination”!
What is quite astonishing, and totally hypocritical is that those who quote the bible on the subject of men lying with men being an “abomination” appear to completely ignore all of the many other “abominations” listed in the bible. For example, it is crystal clear that adultery is not only an abomination, it is listed as one of the Ten Commandments that we MUST obey, and is also very specific on the punishment for adultery. And yet, adulterers can re-marry time after time after time. At least the Catholic church (I am not a member) generally precludes divorcees from re-marrying in the Catholic church, but I believe it is fair to say that no other Christian church in Bermuda prohibits adulterers from marrying even though all adulterers have committed a most serious abomination.
If “The Truth shall set you free” feels so strongly about gay marriage then he or she must surely agree that it is morally indefensible for any Christian church to allow adulterous abominators to marry. It would be totally hypocritical to argue otherwise because surely an abomination is an abomination!
I do not support the idea that churches should be forced in any way to conduct gay marriages in their Houses of Worship, and that is their right to choose, but I believe that same sex civil marriages should be legalised. And as for the fallacious position taken by Kim Davis, the County Clerk in Kentucky, surely if we follow the twisted logic of this thrice divorced woman, she could also decide that it is against her new found religious principles to refuse to marry adulterers for the same reason as same sex couples i.e. they are, in her mind, abominators! Now that would be the height of hypocrisy.
If a man and a woman can get married and it’s okay. There is no reason, save a religious one, for a man and a man, or a woman and a woman not to get married, nor, frankly, any grouping of any of the gender spectrum.
Religions do not dictate our laws and therefore should be null and void when it comes to considering this topic.
Under no circumstances should any law force any church to officiate or have held on their property, a ceremony against their beliefs.
I can appreciate that there are people who are offended by such versions of natural human interaction, however there are many who are equally offended by actions of chosen formalised religions, the solution is to live your life in a way that limits your contact to what bothers you, not demand that everyone else live to suit your sensibilities.
If you have any questions about making the opposite choice, please take a look at many of the conflicts in the world today. Would you prefer to live in one of those conflicts? Or would you prefer to live in a society that accepts differences?
I find that society is truly in a sad stated. First of all, God made marriage and designed it in a way that works both physically and spiritually. Now gay people want what God created and fell that it is there right to have it because of our manmade laws. There will come a time when we all look back and ask ourselves how did we get here? I find that mankind does not stand for anything. We simply do whatever we want and feel justified if a lot of people already do it and if someone disagrees with our actions we say that we are being “discriminated against.”
This is only the beginning when it comes to this marriage situation. Soon people will say I want to married a man and a woman, I want to marry two men and two women. We just keep moving away from the original design. Before you stand-for-nothing-people say, “you church people think your perfect … blah blah blah, no we just stand for something we are regular people who are not perfect and struggle with situations like everyone else does. I do not even know how people cannot believe in a higher being. Take a look in the mirror my God made that. In society today people change their sex, use homosexuality as a fad (in thing at the time) and mean while children are growing up in this and think that this is the norm.
People talk about how Christians try to force Christianity onto other people, how about society tries to force people into accepting homosexuality. They show it all over TV, in music videos and other forms of media. Just look at Bruce Jenner, what do I even tell my children that is?
You tell them that she has finally found herself and has been brave enough to be the person she always was. It’s easy.
As for God creating marriage? No. He didn’t.
God has nothing to do with my marriage. Should I not be allowed to be married?
Actually, God DID create marriage. He was the designer of it and thus explains His very intentions for it. For the purposes of the debate at hand, one of those intentions was that it be between man and woman. This goes back all the way to the beginning when he created Adam and Eve (so that man would not be alone) and for this reason, and man should leave his mother and father and be united with his WIFE to become one flesh (Gen. 2:24).
The problem, as Just Me quite rightly states, is that we as a society have lost sight of what marriage (among other things) really means and was designed to do. This applies to heterosexual couples as well. People get married for many different reasons, a lot of them not being what God intended (for money, status, pressure etc) and thus many marriages eventually fall apart and sadly end in divorce.
The important point here is not one of human rights because marriage is not a right; it’s a privilege and ordained by God. While I am wholeheartedly against same sex marriage, I am also against marrying for the wrong reasons, marrying when knowingly unequally yoked and marrying more than one partner.
I am a young lady who is currently happily married with two beautiful children and have been married for long enough to know that marriage is no easy stroll in the park on a sunny Sunday afternoon. It takes HARD work and commitment and above all, it is mandatory to include God in the union. Those of you who argue that its not fair that same sex couples are not allowed to marry need to take that argument up with God, the designer and realize that according to HIS design, its actually those pushing for same sex marriage who are being unfair because that’s not the way it was meant to be. You are not the creator of marriage and thus You cannot make up the rules. That’s God’s job (as the creator), and God ALONE. And whether we like it or not, God has spoken on this issue.
First question – which God?
But I just want to know why you think everybody else should follow the rules laid down in the Bible.
Here’s the thing… You are talking about religion. Not everyone believes in God or the bible, or do, but believe in it differently than you do.
You can believe ALL of this, if you want. That is your choice and your right. You can live your life by the rules of this choice.
What CAN’T happen, and I’m sure you agree with this if it was happening to you, is the imposition of those rules, of that belief, onto anyone else. Your religion is your choice. You can believe that God invented marriage and intended it to be between a man and a woman. That’s fine. But you can’t demand that anyone else believe that.
You wouldn’t want anyone imposing their religious rules onto you, would you? Why is it ok to do so here?
I guess it all boils down to what one believes marriage is and stands for. I do not feel as though I am forcing anyone to be religious or believe in God but when you are trying to touch something that God created and turn it into something the creator did not intend for it, that’s what I oppose. Do what you want with your life; that’s your choice but why does it have to be called marriage; something clearly stated by God as being sacred and between man and woman?
Because it’s also NOT that.
I am an atheist and do not believe in God. Should I have to change what I call my marriage?
Like I said, you can define your marriage with all the God you want. But nobody should have the right to do that for someone else.
And it is certainly NOT mandatory to have God in a marriage. Not by any definition. YOU can make that decision for yourself, but you can’t make anyone else abide by that decision.
Ok, maybe not mandatory as clearly many do not include God in their marriages. And you’re right, I cannot force anyone else to abide by that decision but I will say this; its a heck of a lot easier when you do include Him.
Well, opposition to Marriage Equality is exactly that… Forcing others to abide by that decision. Isn’t that unfair?
I read recently that Australian aborigines were marrying each other some 30,000 years ago. To the best of my knowledge they had absolutely no concept of God as we know it in the Middle East and the Western World. I wonder how we can explain how their marriages were ordained by this God of ours who is completely alien to aborigines. Marriages have also been an integral part of Chinese culture for many thousands of years. Neither of these ancient civilisations had ever heard of Adam and Eve. Wonder how God explained marriage to them!
Can I ask what your view on King David and King Soloman?
what kind of great god doesn’t want (his/her) people to be happy?
Of course, God wants His children to be happy but that’s just it, does doing whatever we want without any rules equate to happiness? (Apart from the fact that what makes us happy is EVER changing) Do we then not enforce discipline with our children because we want them to be “happy”? Rules are made for a reason; and just like children, we may not always understand them or agree with them but we should follow them because those who made them (in this case God) know what’s best for us.
people were getting married far before christianity my friend. marriage has little to nothing to do with christianity apart from those who desire to be married in a church. how do people who don’t consider themselves christians get married then? atheists can’t get married? think about it, and stop hiding behind religion to cloud your bigotry.
That’s the thing…you call me a bigot because I choose to stand by what I believe in. I have no prejudice toward the person, but against the behavior. No different from someone who opposes the liar, cheater or thief. (many of them who can also argue they were born that way). And yes, as I stated above, there are heterosexual couples who also use marriage for unintended purposes (to which I also oppose). But just because the law (manmade) doesn’t protect against one thing doesn’t mean it should be a free for all (similar to the drugs debate).
And when I talk about God creating marriage, I am a little confused as to how people could have been getting married prior to this when God created the very first two human beings (Adam and Eve) and married them. Maybe we are getting caught up in the modern day traditional ceremonies? Nonetheless, I stand by the fact that it was intended for man and woman and should not be tapered with simply because today we feel it should be some other way. Tomorrow we will change our minds again and decide we want the rules changed to accommodate that. Marriage is not the domain for that.
Ah, the same old tired love the sinner, hate the sin BS.
Liars, cheaters and thieves are hurting others. Marriage equality hurts no-one.
SAME LOVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlVBg7_08n0
When I was in the third grade I thought that I was gay,
‘Cause I could draw, my uncle was, and I kept my room straight.
I told my mom, tears rushing down my face
She’s like “Ben you’ve loved girls since before pre-k, trippin’.”
Yeah, I guess she had a point, didn’t she?
Bunch of stereotypes all in my head.
I remember doing the math like, “Yeah, I’m good at little league.”
A preconceived idea of what it all meant
For those that liked the same sex
Had the characteristics
The right wing conservatives think it’s a decision
And you can be cured with some treatment and religion
Man-made rewiring of a predisposition
Playing God, aw nah here we go
America the brave still fears what we don’t know
And “God loves all his children” is somehow forgotten
But we paraphrase a book written thirty-five-hundred years ago
I don’t know
And I can’t change
Even if I tried
Even if I wanted to
And I can’t change
Even if I tried
Even if I wanted to
My love
My love
My love
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
If I was gay, I would think hip-hop hates me
Have you read the YouTube comments lately?
“Man, that’s gay” gets dropped on the daily
We become so numb to what we’re saying
A culture founded from oppression
Yet we don’t have acceptance for ‘em
Call each other faggots behind the keys of a message board
A word rooted in hate, yet our genre still ignores it
Gay is synonymous with the lesser
It’s the same hate that’s caused wars from religion
Gender to skin color, the complexion of your pigment
The same fight that led people to walk outs and sit ins
It’s human rights for everybody, there is no difference!
Live on and be yourself
When I was at church they taught me something else
If you preach hate at the service those words aren’t anointed
That holy water that you soak in has been poisoned
When everyone else is more comfortable remaining voiceless
Rather than fighting for humans that have had their rights stolen
I might not be the same, but that’s not important
No freedom ’til we’re equal, damn right I support it
(I don’t know)
And I can’t change
Even if I tried
Even if I wanted to
My love
My love
My love
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
We press play, don’t press pause
Progress, march on
With the veil over our eyes
We turn our back on the cause
‘Til the day that my uncles can be united by law
When kids are walking ’round the hallway plagued by pain in their heart
A world so hateful some would rather die than be who they are
And a certificate on paper isn’t gonna solve it all
But it’s a damn good place to start
No law is gonna change us
We have to change us
Whatever God you believe in
We come from the same one
Strip away the fear
Underneath it’s all the same love
About time that we raised up… sex
And I can’t change
Even if I tried
Even if I wanted to
And I can’t change
Even if I tried
Even if I wanted to
My love
My love
My love
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
She keeps me warm
Love is patient
Love is kind
Love is patient
Love is kind
(not crying on Sundays)
Love is patient
(not crying on Sundays)
Love is kind
(I’m not crying on Sundays)
Love is patient
(not crying on Sundays)
Love is kind
(I’m not crying on Sundays)
Love is patient
(not crying on Sundays)
Love is kind
(I’m not crying on Sundays)
Love is patient
Love is kind
Under The Sun
https://soundcloud.com/tonybrannon/under-the-sun
UNDER THE SUN
Music & Lyrics: Tony Brannon
Under the sun, under the sun, we’ll be as one, under the sun
and in this skin we all live in, we’ll be as one under the sun
I see a rainbow up in the sky, so many colors it makes me high (so high)
Colors of love and happiness, follow your rainbow and you’ll be blessed
Under the sun, under the sun, we’ll be as one, under the sun
and in this skin we all live in, we’ll be as one under the sun
The gift of faith (the gift of faith), the gift of hope (the gift of hope)
The gift of love is the greatest gift of all
If we dig deep (deep), deep down in our souls
We’ll find the faith (faith) but love will save us all
And love is free (free love) and love is real (real love)
Love is the only thing we truly feel
John Lennon sang “All you need is love”
Bob Marley too, “One Love”
Under the sun, under the sun, we’ll be as one, under the sun
and in this skin we all live in, we’ll be as one under the sun
I see a rainbow up in the sky, so many colors I want to cry
Colors of love and happiness, follow that rainbow and you’ll be blessed
Under the sun, under the sun, we’ll be as one, under the sun
and in this skin we all live in, we’ll be as one under the sun
Under the sun, under the sun, we’ll be as one, under the sun
and in this skin we all live in, we’ll be as one under the sun
The bible references are irrelevant in this debate . This is a matter of law , not religion . Legal marriage has nothing to do with a church wedding . Churches that oppose same sex marriage should remain free to choose not to conduct such services .
Same sex marriage is a matter of extending the same legal recognition and the protection of rights of inheritance and custody already enjoyed by heterosexual couples . To be clear , same sex couples are not asking for special rights , just the same rights extended to everyone else .
The argument that same sex marriages could be a boost to tourism cheapens the debate . Same sex marriages should be legalized because it is the right thing to do , not because we can make money from it .
Thank you Reality Check for presenting the voice of reason.
I think I have worked out why the OBA through the good Minister Pamplin are so anxious to push this thing forward – Money. More specifically, Gay Tourism, which is huge and growing. Imagine the traditional Bermuda honeymoon extended to the gay market, we could become a global Mecca (sorry Muslims)for this.
That’s stupid. The only reason for doing this, is that it’s the right and moral thing to do. Nothing more.
No, OBA/UBP, it’s (that being everything) only about money. Nothing wrong about that, in fact, I’m all for it. Now, what would really impress is if PLP Leader Bean would show some leadership here.
Is that why Freddie Wade, Lois Browne-Evans, Alex Scott, Jennifer Smith, and Ewart Brown all voted to decriminalise homosexuality when they voted in favour of the Stubbs Bill? Did they do it for the money and Gay Tourism? Or did they vote that way because they believed it was the right thing to do, and they believed in equal human rights?
The Religious. On the wrong side of every issue. Ever.
Too many Christians, too few lions. *sigh*
Onion Juice, explain your comment”greek culture’
All you need is love. .
True Christians wouldn’t be arguing this point here…They’d be off somewhere praying for the inflicted asking God’s forgiveness for those that know not what they do and those that DO.
Is marriage a sacred vow ?
To some. To others, not. The point is that it isn’t NECCESSARILY a sacred vow. It can be, but doesn’t HAVE to be.
How does same sex marriage benefit humanity as a whole ?
It doesn’t. It actually weakens it. Stand for nothing and you’ll fall for anything.
How does it weaken anything?
How does it weaken it?
How does any marriage benefit humanity as a whole?
The flipside of that question is “How does same-sex marriage harm humanity?”
After all, it’s not going to affect your marriage (unless one of you is gay). No-one is forcing you to marry anyone into a marriage with someone of the same sex.
If anything, legalizing same-sex marriage allows gay couples to enter into the same legal committed relationships that straight couples can currently enter into. If anything, that’s a major plus to society.
Easy.
It allows families some protection and rights, allowing them to be together, to BE a family. It might now be a family by your definition, but you don’t really get to define how someone else makes a family, do you?
Surely, creating stable family units is a positive thing, no?