Sexual Orientation/Age Discrimination Debate

July 14, 2012 | 164 Comments

Yesterday [July 13] politicians debated adding an amendment to the Human Rights Act to ban discrimination based on age and sexual discrimination, with the majority of MPs who spoke in favour of extending the Human Rights Act,.

Those speaking in support of extending the Human Rights Act to cover sexual orientation included Pat Gordon Pamplin [OBA], Shawn Crockwell [OBA], Kim Swan [UBP], Michael Scott [PLP], Zane DeSilva [PLP], Wayne Perinchief [PLP], while those speaking against included PLP MPs Derrick Burgess, Dennis Lister, Darius Tucker and Marc Bean.

17 of the the 36 MPs spoke on the matter; two were UBP, two were OBA and thirteen were PLP. Both UBP MPs — Kim Swan, Charles Swan — spoke; while Pat Gordon Pamplin and Shawn Crockwell from the OBA also spoke.

The PLP MPs who spoke were Premier Paula Cox, Derrick Burgess, Zane DeSilva, Marc Bean, Wayne Perinchief, Darius Tucker, Neletha Butterfield, Dame Jennifer Smith, Terry Lister, Lovitta Foggo, Michael Scott, Dennis Lister, and Glenn Blakeney.

Those that, for whatever reason, did not speak on the take note motion included [PLP] Walter Lister, Randy Horton, Elvin James, Dale Butler, Alex Scott, Ashfield Devent, Michael Weeks, Walter Roban, Patrice Minors, Wayne Furbert, [OBA] Craig Cannonier, Mark Pettingill, Dr Grant Gibbons, Louise Jackson, Trevor Moniz, Bob Richards, Cole Simons, and Donte Hunt.

Minister Glenn Blakeney lead the debate on the take note motion “That this Honourable House take note of the merits of introducing an Equality Act which will establish measures protecting persons from age discrimination, and discrimination based on one’s sexual orientation, particularly in circumstances relating to employment, accommodation and the procurement of goods and services.”

Support for banning age discrimination was almost universal among MPs, while the debate on banning discrimination based on sexual orientation was more varied.

After Minister Blakeney’s speech, the OBA’s Shawn Crockwell was the first MP to speak, saying the OBA believes in “eradicating all forms of discrimination.”

“We were not elected just to protect the majority, but we were elected to ensure everyone receives protection under the law,” Mr Crockwell said. “Everyone deserves representation in this House of Assembly, and everyone deserves protection under the law.”

Mr Crockwell went on to say: “Surely the Minister cannot be serious, to stand up and say this Government has been committed to eradicating discrimination as it relates to age and sexual orientation, because if the Government was committed to doing it we would have a bill before the House today.”

Minister Blakeney interrupted with a ‘point of order’, saying “My point of order is his opinion is out of order.” The Minister and Mr Crockwell went back and forth on certain points, with Speaker of the House Stanley Lowe interrupting them, giving a short lecture, and saying “let’s get on with it.”

“It’s time this Government stops playing politics with people’s human rights. It’s as simple as that,” said Mr Crockwell.

PLP MP Derrick Burgess spoke after Mr Crockwell, saying: “When it comes to the discrimination based on sexual orientation, I will take my lead from my Church. I am not for discriminating against anyone, but I do have a problem with what our children see today…”

“I will take my lead from the Church, I am from the AME Church, and I think their stance on that is no secret. When it comes to age discrimination, I certainly will always be against that,” said Mr Burgess.

UBP MP Charlie Swan then spoke, saying that while in his view it is impossible to eradicate all discrimination, he said that discrimination of any form is wrong, “it doesn’t matter who its perpetrated against.”

“I believe everyone deserves equal treatment when it comes to hiring and employment, these are concrete things. If they are gay or lesbian and they can do the job they should be considered on their merits.”

Minister Michael Scott spoke next, and was clear in his support for adding banning discrimination based on sexual orientation or age.

“I support the removal of discrimination against homosexuals, the introduction of two simple words – sexual orientation – within the framework of our laws.”

OBA Pat Gordon Pamplin referenced Mr Crockwell’s statement, and said we are “singular in our position regarding equality” and encouraged the Minister to bring the legislation. She also noted we are talking in “terms of sexual orientation not sexual behaviour, we have to make that distinction.”

She noted Mr Burgess’ statement about following his Church, and said while she respects that position, “at no time does any Pastor say that because your sexual orientation is different from mine don’t give me your collection on a Sunday. That doesn’t happen. And that’s being very real.”

UBP MP Kim Swan said, “”I do not feel that God has created anyone in this earth that doesn’t deserve the same protection I have,” and quoted Coretta Scott King [below].

My husband, Martin Luther King Jr., once said, “We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny… an inescapable network of mutuality,… I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be.” Therefore, I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.

Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.

Minister Dame Jennifer Smith spoke next saying, ”I believe the Human Rights Act, as it is written, covers the rights of all humans as is.”

“Even though I am a member of the AME Church, and even though I think its fine as it is, I would be willing to vote for that change as ‘those who feel it know it.’ There is one judge, and that judge will judge all of us when that day comes.”

PLP MP Terry Lister followed Dame Jennifer, he did not really touch on the issue of sexual orientation, however spoke in support of banning age discrimination.

Following Mr Lister was PLP MP Lovitta Foggo who said some will try to use the legislation as the “biggest political football you can imagine,” and commended Minister Blakeney for bringing the matter to debate.

Minister Zane DeSilva spoke in support of banning discrimination based on age, and moving onto sexual orientation pointed out that it “goes both ways” and gay people could discriminate against straight people as well.

“When it comes to the gay community, I don’t mind what anyone does in their own home. I’m not in that category, but I have some very good friends who are gay, I have no problem with that.”

PLP MP Neletha Butterfield was the next to contribute, thanking Minister Blakeney for bringing the matter to debate. “Lets show respect, the church has its duty to do, and we have our duty to do as we pass legislation in this House,” said Ms Butterfield.

“We are all God’s children,” said Ms Butterfield. “If you cut us we will all bleed the same colour, I haven’t seen anyone bleed different yet.”

PLP MP Dennis Lister said he supported banning discrimination based on age, and noted that the matter of discrimination based on sexual orientation has come to the House on two other occasions, and he voted against both motions. ”I still have not been moved from where I have been in the past, and I want to be noted for that…” he said.

“I am not opposed to the individual, I don’t want individuals to get offended or take it personally….it’s always the behaviour that I have my concern in that regard. As a member of the Church, I feel we should love and forgive everyone – always.”

“Maybe one day, by time you get around to bringing legislation, you can find a way to change my viewpoint, but I haven’t moved from that yet,” said Mr Lister.

Minister Marc Bean spoke first on age discrimination, mentioning the various contributions made by senior citizens to the community and said it “is never too late until you have to go see Chippo Augustus.”

Moving onto sexual orientation, Minister Bean said he doesn’t feel there is any need to alter the Human Right Act.

The Minister said that: “Governments should guarantee the rights of every single human being, not because they are black, or gay or women but as they are human beings.”

He spoke on public and private rights, and used renting apartments as an example noting some landlords do not want pets or smokers. “You have every right to say that, because it’s your property.”

“If I am a landlord and I do not want gay persons in my apartment, I think it’s their right to deny anyone to rent their apartment. You know why, because they are responsible for that mortgage, it’s their house, it’s their property.

Minister Bean said that is a private right, but under public rights everyone can buy their own house, and do what they like in the privacy of their own house.

“In other words, gay people can go and buy a mansion and they can have the biggest rainbow circle gay parties and bashments all they like on their property. And even if their next door neighbour doesn’t like it, even if their next door neighbour is a Bishop of a Church, that Bishop has to suck it up.”

Minister Bean also noted that there have been, are are today, MPs who are “openly or not so openly gay.”

PLP MP Darius Tucker was next, and said: “We have a Human Acts Right in place and under that Act all humans are protected,” and said there is enough legislation in place without “defining what a human being is.”

“I personally don’t feel we need to go down this road, because as a human being the necessary protections are in place for every human being within this country,” said Mr Tucker. “We are fine with the Human Rights Act, and don’t need to add any words to it…”

Next to speak was Minister Wayne Perinchief, with the 71-year-old saying he is “creeping to the top of ageism” and noted that “wisdom comes with age”, and spoke against discrimination based on age.

He also spoke in support of banning discrimination based on sexual orientation. ”To presume that a person’s behaviour is immoral is to put oneself in a position of being judge and jury, and the sole arbiter of human behaviour,” said the Minister.

“I do not believe we as individuals — with all our frailties and foibles — have the right to set ourselves up as the paragons of virtue. That, to me, is an arrogant position.”

“I believe that most right thinking people feel honestly that gay people should not be discriminated against,” said Minister Perinchief. “Those of us who have experienced discrimination know that it’s sometimes covert. It’s not always in your face.”

“Any type of discrimination is wrong, and if we believe that gay people are being discriminated against, we must right that wrong and put it into legislation that they shall not, and will not, be discriminated against and make that amendment in our Human Rights Act.”

Premier Paula Cox was the last to speak on the matter, commencing at around 9.15pm. On the matter of discrimination based on sexual orientation she referenced the motion former MP Renee Webb brought and said: “My position, particularly as a lawyer, is clear.

“And it was clear then to the Honourable Member Ms Webb, she didn’t like it, but I said that I thought that widening it so you just had blanket sexual orientation wasn’t appropriate.

“But I did think that you should have the ability to have discrimination based on employment, accommodation and services. I think you cannot, in my view, discriminate on those grounds.”

Noting she was talking about consenting adults and not anyone taking advantage of someone of a young age or mental disability, the Premier said: “To be quite honest, its not our jobs to get into people’s bedrooms.

“We should not be using that as a way to disqualify or dis-entitle people based on their employment and accommodation and services. “

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Comments (164)

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  1. Missing Leader says:

    Is Mr. Crockwell acting Leader of the Opposition? Every week we hear from him and he does speak. thank goodness the OBA has him to speak.

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  2. LMAO says:

    MP Marc Bean is the best - draw dem out minister.

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  3. No same sex marriage says:

    I have no problem with sexual orientation (no discrimination against getting job, housing) but don't condone the sexual acts as it could end the human race

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    • chris says:

      ... You really think that's a risk? Get a clue.

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    • Hmmmmmm says:

      Huh this debate was about equal rights for human beings, nothing more and nothing less.

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    • Emoni says:

      I understand your point, but somehow I don't think that's ever going to be a problem...

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    • Billy Mays says:

      No same sex marriage, you must be aware of the fact that you are an idiot. And a hypocritical one at that. It's ok to be gay but not to act gay? Do you not see how stupid that is? Um probably not. Never mind. One can only change their mind if they have one to change.

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    • Billy Mays says:

      Discrimination due to any factor over which a person has no control is flat wrong. Age, race, gender, sexuality, anything. Those who oppose anti-discrimination legislation are bigots; same as racists, but based on another characteristic which is equally out of a person's control. They don't likely consider themselves bigots, but they are. All of them. Every last one.

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    • .am says:

      So could withdrawal, the contraceptive pill, condoms, abortions, masturbation, premature ejaculation, fellatio, heterosexual anal sex, etc etc. And yet SOMEHOW there seem to be SEVEN BILLION humans on this earth.

      As long as their are stupid people on this earth, I don't think we'll see the population dying down any time soon.

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      • JD says:

        ".am", EXACTLY! Thank you for adding some sense to this ridiculous debate!

        Whoever "No same sex marriage" obviously doesn't seem to understand that gay people have existed LONG before the term 'gay' was invented, long before the marriage equality debates started and long before people decided to be hostile and homophobic. Oh and SOMEHOW the human race has survived all of that and we even have OVER population in many countries... shocking!......

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    • Mike Hind says:

      How could this "end the human race"?

      Marriage equality, or even gay folks having sex, has absolutely no effect on heterosexual sex, breeding or the population in general.

      I don't understand this line of thinking...

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  4. longtail says:

    Dennis Lister - "As a member of the Church, I feel we should love and forgive everyone – always.” Love and forgive, but go ahead and trod on any human rights gays might otherwise have .... it's OK because you can still 'love and forgive' those who you have trodden on???? From a religious standpoint both Dennis Lister and Derrick Burgess sound like Pilate washing his hands!
    Full marks for Wayne Perinchief - age does certainly bring wisdom!

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  5. All people should be treated equal - BUT - when their sexual orientation is thrown in your face, that is where I draw the line!! When a person dresses as the opposite sex, uses the opposite sex's washroom.... now that is sick!! Why would employers allow this??

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    • Just wondering says:

      Could you explain to me how that is sick?

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    • chris says:

      Yeah you're an idiot. You say people should be treated equal and then totally contradict yourself.

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    • The nitty gritty says:

      I bet if we got into the details of your sex life including what you fantasize, troll the pornsites etc
      we'd find a far more sinister person than the bigoted one we see here.
      You think it harms anyone to be in love with another person be they male or female?
      Your resentful and militant views however lead to aggression.
      If you feel there is such a problem with same sex love- ...consult the CREATOR!
      The worst that could happen if 50% of the population were gay would be a positive reduction in unwed pregant teenagers, babies born to fatherless (and often motherless) homes, and the general world population. The world could be a little less stressed and resentful.A few less wars
      declared by heterosexuals.

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    • .am says:

      That would be covered under discrimination based on gender, not sexual orientation. The latter is who you're attracted to - not who you align yourself with.

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  6. Just wondering says:

    So as a landlord I have the right to say no to a single mother with kids?

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  7. LaVerne Furbert says:

    It's most interesting that no one so far has commented on the amendment for age discrimination. Does this mean that more people are concerned about homosexuals being discriminated against than they do about older people being discrimianted against?

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    • longtail says:

      It clearly means that most people do not have an issue with proposed legislation dealing with age discrimination.

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    • Sooooo says:

      @ LaVerne The addition of age descrimination is a given... The fact is that the PLP Government are scared of losing the vote of the church. Mostly the vote of the AME church...

      @Same sex marrage .. "sexual acts as it could end the human race".... who the hell brainwashed you?? I have never heard such a idiotic statement!!

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      • LaVerne Furbert says:

        I'm trying to find where I mentioned "same sex marriage" on this thread.

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        • RKennedy says:

          @ LaVerne Furbert, What I find amazing, is that you made it quite clear as to why this amendment is needed to be discussed and passed. Your statement on a fairly recent radio talk show left me in shock! Your statement said"if a gay couple/person came to your house to rent your apartment that you would refuse them tenancy" is that not discrimination based on sexual orientation? Although I do appreciate your honesty, you boldly showed discrimination does exist! Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot your thoughts would be different. Maybe "gay" landlords, there are many, should start asking the same questions and not allow "straight" persons tenancy,I am sure that would raise a hair or two. This act is intended to protect the rights of people as a whole not just homosexuals as its being portrayed. SMH

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        • Emoni says:

          Ms. Furbert-that part of the post wasn't directed at you. When you see the @ sign, that means the statement is for whoever's username follows. The comment that said @LaVerne was for you. The one that said @Same Sex Marriage was for another poster with that username, who made a comment that they didn't condone same sex sexual acts as they could end the human race-that comment wasn't directed at you...try and keep up, will ya.

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          • Reverend Pastor says:

            LV is incredibly self important and thinks that we all just hover and wait to comment whenever she speaks. Pathetic might be an appropriate adjective!

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            • The nitty gritty says:

              The whole basis for your belief is that YOU feel part of the Majority!
              As long as you are part of the majority your take on discrimination is made correct?
              Sort of 'Might makes Right'?
              Do you remember when Black people were in the minority and called a 'minority'?
              That coincided with their inability to get things right, end discrimination, segregation etc. So now you are in the MAJORITY (as a heterosexual) you feel it is ok to discriminate because the gay % is greatly outnumbered?!
              Now you can look at human foibles and see how hypocritical and pathetic you really are, small and petty, prejudiced and arrogant.
              For you and Derek who will hide behind the church, did not THE CREATOR have a hand in this? Perhaps it is nature's way of pulling the reins on the devastating world population growth?

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  8. While favourably amending Bermuda's present gay omissive Humans Rights Law to embrace sexual orientation would be most welcome and proper… it would, however, do nothing to relieve the potential legal plight of any known or outed gender-variant, and intersex and diverse-sex person—whose individual sexual orientation may be asexual, bisexual, heterosexual or homosexual—from being discriminated against with impunity… for the umpteenth, Bermuda's powers-that-be… for the future wellbeing of Bermuda's many gender-variant folk… the silent many, many more—mainly heterosexual—closeted cross-dressers than overt and covert gays… sexual-orientation and gender-identity are individually separate and distinct entities that need to be regarded and legislated as such in much needed amendments to not only Bermuda's present gay but gender-variant, and intersex and diverse-sex folk's omissive Human Rights Law...

    Brenda Lana Smith R.af D,
    Cornwall
    Britain

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  9. TIDBIT says:

    THIS IS A JOKE BY THE COMMENTS OF DERRICK BURGESS ABOUT AME CHURCH POSITION. ONE ONLY NEED TO GO OVERSEAS AND ATTEND ONE OF THEIR MEETINGS AND SEE THE BEHAVIOUR. STOP TRYING TO PULL OVER BERMUDA'S EYES. AMES...HOW MANY OTHER CONGREGATIONS HERE HAVE HAD MEMBERS DIE TO AIDS. THINK ABOUT IT.

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  10. RUFKM says:

    OBA, silent as always. Do these people take a position on anything?

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    • Sooooo says:

      Obviously didn't read....

      After Minister Blakeney’s speech, the OBA’s Shawn Crockwell was the first MP to speak, saying the OBA believes in “eradicating all forms of discrimination.”

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    • Rick Rock says:

      Interesting how many of the PLP (the "progressive" party) are actually the homophobic bigots.

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    • Just wondering says:

      'OBA Pat Gordon Pamplin referenced Mr Crockwell’s statement, and said we are “singular in our position regarding equality” and encouraged the Minister to bring the legislation. '

      the part where she is quoted as saying singular in our position says that she is speaking for the party as a whole, granted i'm assuming that but that what i take her to mean when she said that.

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    • Just the Facts says:

      The members of the OBA agreed ahead of the debate to have only one speaker, because they wanted to see legislation brought to the House rather than a take note motion, which has no real meaning. ALL OBA MPs are in favour of an amendment to the Human Rights Act to ban discrimination on the basis of age or sexual orientation and would have voted for it had the PLP had the courage to bring real legislation. The PLP has been talking about this since 2004 and have done nothing. Eight years is a long time to wait. Shawn Crockwell actually spelled this out in his remarks, but neither the daily paper nor online media sites do a very good job of reporting what was actually said.

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  11. TIDBIT says:

    I FIND IT VERY DISTURBING WHEN OTHERS HAVE THE GALL TO SAY WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG FROM SOMEONE ELSES LIFESTYLE. EVERYBODY DESERVES THE RIGHT TO BE TREATED EQUALLY. I AM A HETERSEXUAL MALE BUT GREATLY TURNED OFF BY THESE SO CALLED SELF RIGHTEOUS CHURCH FOLK, WHO LIVE ONE WAY IN BERMUDA AND ANOTHER WAY IN THE USA. IT IS AMAZING HOW MANY PREACHERS(MARRIED) AME & OTHERS I HAVE SEEN BRAKE THEIR NECKS AND LOOK NO STIR AT FEMALES IN A LUSTFUL MANNER.. YOU DONT WANT ME CALL THE ROLL BECAUSE I KNOW YOU ALL BY NAME. IF WE ALL PATTERN OUR LIVES AFTER JESUS AND THE WORD OF GOD IT WOULDNT BE A DISCUSSION ABOUT LEGISLATION, FOR HE COMMANDED US THAT WE OUGHT TO LOVE ANOTHER,THAT WE OUGHT TO LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL OUR HEART,WITH ALL OUR SOUL AND WITH ALL OUR MIND AND WE OUGHT LOVE OUR NEIGHBOUR AS OURSELF. HOW DO YOU DEFINE NEIGHBOUR IS THE QUESTION.

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    • Day says:

      Jesus also calls for us to sin no more. I believe he would define adultery, fornication, and the homosexual lifstyle as sin. This doesn't make any one who believes that it is a sin a self-rightous person who doesn't love his neighbor, but a person who is simple adhering to the principles of Christ.

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      • chris says:

        Fair, but they do become self-righteous when they feel they have the right to impose their beliefs on people who do not subscribe to this 'Christ' thing.

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        • Day says:

          That is not becoming self-righteous. What they are doing is simply adhering to a standard rather that being hyporcites by saying they believe in Christ yet reject His teachings. But can you explain how their beliefs are being imposed?

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      • SMH says:

        @ Day: First, homosexuality, unlike adultery or fornication isn't necessarily a choice, although homophobia always is (a choice).

        Second, adulterers and other fornicators don't run the risk of not getting a job, a place to live, or service in a restaurant (or other business), simply because someone SUSPECTS that they are same-sex oriented, even if they are not. Even murderers have more rights, if people think they are heterosexual. Is being same-sex-oriented a bigger "sin" than murder?

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        • Day says:

          @SMH: Well in some cases a person may not choose to be attracted to another sex, but in some cases people may not choose to be violent. Some children grow up in violent homes and thus learn to be violent. It is all they know. From some studies that I have seen most people who do not choose to be homosexual have often been molested and have learned the behavior and acquired the desire for the opposite sex. There is no such thing as a homosexual gene and there has yet to be a full agreement among pyschologists to the nurture vs nature debate.

          The danger to your second post is that if a law is enacted to defend the rights of homosexuals that it can become overly excessive. If the law is not specific and well detailed a homosexual could use "the homosexual race card" every time HE or SHE was denied a position, job, or proper service in a restaurant. That already happens already, could you imagine what would happen if everytime that person was denied something the law jumped on their side to punish the the potentially innocent person accused of hatred and bigotry?

          I know some landlords who do not rent to people practicing common law. It would be hard for a landlord to regulate a single person and their girlfriend/boyfriend as it would for the landlord to regulate a single homosexual and their significant other. But if that landlord is opposed to fornication and adultery other sexual sins, as a Christian, they should also have a right to decline a person renting from their property who is practicing what they also believe to be an equal sin. Any law that tramples over this right, tramples on their freedom of religion and the freedom of their own usage of property, which is simply another form of discrimination.

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  12. Hmmmmmm says:

    The church and religion is a man made choice. Being gay isn't, God made folks that way. God approves, are you better than God!

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    • Emoni says:

      Where's your proof that God approves? I'm so sick of people saying that to validate their lifestyles. Even if God DID approve of being gay, I'm sure He doesn't approve of the way many homosexuals live. He wouldn't approve of casual sex, bathhouses, promiscuity and the other deviant acts that often accompany that lifestyle.

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      • lawdy ,lawdy .... says:

        yeah Emoni , thank god they can't breed with all that promiscuity and deviant behaviour. They'd give all the wild heteros jumping from bed to bed for irresponsible casual sex who end up knocking out all of the out of wedlock children a real run for their money. Lawd , we'd have run out of room a few eons ago I do think.

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      • Reverend Pastor says:

        Perhaps God wouldn't approve of the way straight people have casual sex, go to bathhouses, practice promiscuity and do other deviant acts that often accompany the straight lifestyle.

        Well, he might - if he existed..........

        Religious people are perhaps the sickest of us all. After all they believe in an imaginary friend called God who solves all their problems. Pathetic!

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      • chris says:

        "Where’s your proof that God approves?" Where's your proof he doesn't. Until then we ought to stop making decision for Him and mind our own business.

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        • lionfish says:

          It doesn't work that way mate! You can't say something exists, justify discriminatory behaviours on that thing, and then tell somebody to prove it doesn't exist or mind their own business... That's like me telling you I saw a unicorn... You can't prove they don't exist so therefore they do? Bollocks! Separate state and religion and give equal rights to ALL people. Funny how we have politicians bending over backwards for the church now isn't it?

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          • chris says:

            "You can’t prove they don’t exist so therefore they do?" Prove to me that they don't... Until then they might. Two sides of the same coin. Other than that, I agree with you completely.

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        • .am says:

          1. God exists.
          2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
          3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
          4.An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
          5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
          6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
          7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
          8. Evil exists (logical contradiction) —> God does not exist.

          :)

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        • holllllaarr!!! says:

          Amen to the brother!!!according to the Bible, if God is everything, all knowing, all seeing , even before we think he knowsour thoughts then He truly must be the only Oxymoron to be right and wrong at the same time--Let the fights amongst the gods continue... By the way, while I could give two craps about someones preferred sexual ways I can't understand why a gay person would think they have the right to everything including having a baby.. sorry rights and abilities totally differ.. marriagge is a basic institution for children to be secure in a family.. a family is conceived by a male and female.. whether you are born male or female you can never know what its truly like to be the opposite sex.. being a woman includes having the chromosones and physical structure able to carry a fetus in the womb. don't forget having a vagina makes you ffemale..having a penis makes you male simply, so don't play yourself fellas if you want to be a woman, have a period cycle, give birth and sufer from post menstrual cramps, postpartum depresssion after delivery or meopause... So if you want to play dress up and love your same sex brother or sister so be it but don't tell me you gay guys that you are in the wrong body.. a horse could never be a cow and wouldn't know by looking at one that it has the tendencies of the other animal.. as a woman I will never know what its like to be a man, no matter what clothes I wear or hormone pillsI pop.. if i feel like experiencing sex with a woman do i need legislation?? no one is born gay or straight.. we take on characteristics and personality and genes from birth.. Yes you may feel gentle as a man sometimes I like that!!but if you don't have feelings for me as a woman well so be it, what about the rastafarian and the prostitute?? don't forget just being plain cute sometimes causes discrimination..

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      • Sandgrownan says:

        Bigot.

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      • Dantes Inferno says:

        God clearly makes gay people, there's your proof.

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  13. Peace says:

    Love, compassion and respect to all. No human being has the right power or authority to judge the next human being or discriminate against another human being. Peace.

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  14. R you serious!!! says:

    @ Hmmmmmmmm,

    If they are born that way.........Tell them to be born again!!! Be born again! Simple

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  15. TIDBIT says:

    WOW ...I JUST READ IN THE RG(JULY 14TH 2012) THAT THE NEW AME BISHOP FROM USA ASSIGNED TO BERMUDA IS A 33RD DEGREE MASON(PRINCE HALL) I WONDER WHAT THE POSITIONS IS NOW FOR THE BERMUDA AME CHURCHS WHOSE BERMUDIAN PASTORS FOR EON YEARS HAVE SPOKEN UNFAVOURABLELY ABOUT MASONRY(AS YOU SAY IT IS CLOUDED IN MYSTERY.

    WHAT WILL YOU TELL THIS BISHOP OR YOUR PARISHONERS.... OR HAVE YOU TURNED THE OTHER CHEEK ON THIS MATTER, IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO BE CAUTIOUS ON WHAT YOU SAY OR HOW YOU CONDUT YOURSELF BECAUSE IT MIGHT JUST END BACK AT YOUR DOOR,ALTAR OR PULPIT.

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  16. Common Sense says:

    @ LaVerne. Please take time to look up the word "Chimerism" to see that we now know there are individual human beings who are born with two distinctly sets of chromosomes. (Oprah interviewed two such women, both famous cases, on television). We are now aware that some chimerics have both male and female chromosomes and if you search the internet carefully you can find photos of people who are, as it were, "split down the middle" that is, they are half male with male sexual organs, and half female with female sexual organs. In other cases babies have been born literally half black and half white.

    There was a time before modern science when we believed that people who were born different resulted from the "sins of their fathers", but hopefully we now know better. It is very difficult to argue that chimerism results from “sins of the fathers” because it also occurs in the animal kingdom (to the best of my knowledge no-one has ever suggested that animals are sinners). In fact it is particularly prevalent in marmosets, with recent research suggesting that most marmosets are chimerics, that is, they share DNA with their fraternal twins.

    Please just ask yourself, should we have exceptions to the granting of human rights and dignity if someone is born chimeric, transgendered, or whatever the scientific terms are. Should this be a reason to allow or condone discriminate against them in this 21st century.

    We human beings have discriminated against those who are not like us for centuries, and still do so in many parts of the world. I would like to think that Bermuda is an enlightened country and will accept that all men and women, and those who are either or neither, are created equal and deserve equal human rights.

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    • .am says:

      It would have been much easier to simply reference hermaphrodites.

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      • Walter J. says:

        Easier perhaps, but misleading. Referencing "intersex" would have been easier (than hermaphrodite, at least), as a "hermaphrodite" (true hermaphrodite or true gonadal intersex) refers to an intersex individual with both ovarian /and/ testicular tissue, while "intersex" covers a multitude of variety of sexual development.

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  17. Building a better Bermuda says:

    With regards to gay rights, to pass the amendment without including the right to marry, would make the government guilty of violating the human rights act.
    These amendments and the other definitions about how equal right apply, in themselves are wrong. Equal rights should apply to ALL law abiding citizens in a democracy and only those who violate the rights of others for themselves should find their rights restricted/reduced. The greatest fault in Bermuda's democracy is that the government is more interested in pandering for the votes of the religious majority, than eliminated the discrimination/segregation that pandering enforces. The right to marry is beyond a religious institute, it is a legal one, and should not be theirs to dictate outside their own institution. If a church does not wish to marry a gay couple, that is their right as protected by the freedom of religion, but they can not prevent that gay couple from marrying under the law. Intolerance, segregation and discrimination is still wrong, even if the church doesn't believe it is.

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    • Freedom says:

      It's a falsehood that people would not vote PLP if this legislation was passed, what they gonna do vote OBA don't think so ....people know what is right!

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    • Sense says:

      THIS!
      its a shame i had to get halfway down the page to find some sense in thee comments

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  18. Building a better Bermuda says:

    Also, as a jurisdiction that allows gay marriage, think of the new tourism market that we'd be open to. We are already a popular wedding destination for heterosexual marriages, just go down to the wedding registry office and count the number of announcements that are from non-residents.

    All people equal under the law, and no group above it!

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  19. Mad Dawg says:

    Using Marc Bean's 'logic' it would be perfectly ok to deny renting an apartment to a black person. He'd have us all go back in time to when discrimination was defended.

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    • Boom Bye Bye says:

      I know black landlords who wont rent to black tenants. so whats your point?

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      • Mad Dawg says:

        The point is that once you condone one type of discrimination its a slippery slope.

        If you can discriminate based on 'I pay the mortgage, therefore I can choose not to rent to.....(insert group here)', then you're also saying an employer can discriminate. After, its his firm. He pays the bills.

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  20. chris says:

    Go please your God in private, it really offends me. Now doesn't that sound wrong?

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    • Come Correct says:

      It offends me to see people saying grace at a public lunch, shouldnt that be done in the privacy of your own home? Religious types are the biggest hypocrites.

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      • Building a better Bermuda says:

        There is more than one path to nirvana, I have no issue with people practicing their religious beliefs, there is a great many positive commonalities in all the core religious texts. It is those that preach religion for their own selfish beliefs that have missed the point. A spiritual man is not always religious, and a religious man is not always spiritual. I have, in my life thus far, meet a great many religious individuals who have a firm grasp on the spiritual, their commonality is that they do not preach that they have the answer, but they welcome all who who wish to learn the answer they have found. I have also encountered an almost equal many who couldn't find the spiritual nature of religion if it was in front of them with open arms. Their commonality is that they believe they have the answer and think all should listen to what they say as the truth and almost all believe that while god is love, anything outside their defined love is wrong. More than a few of those also have trouble following some of the commandments and what they preach, but they can't be hippocrates as they 'know' god and are doing his work.

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  21. R you serious!!! says:

    Mad Dawg,

    Ya Mad!!! If you had 4 sons and your apartment yard was shared with the main house, "Would you want two gay men as tenants barbecuing and kicking ball with your kids while your out working in your back yard"?

    I don't think so!!!

    Racial issue's is a whole lot diffferent then sexual preference!

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    • Shaking the Head says:

      Would you OK with a couple who are swingers and having different couples round during the week? Or lesbians? What if a propsective tenant is black and gay, or white and gay, or is straight but so addicted he has multiple girlfriends round? I think you'd agree there is no simple answer, but discrimnation is wrong and the PLP, if serious, should introduce a Bill.
      Lastly, as regards Derrick Burgess' comments, will he also follow the Church as regards Gambling when he has alledgedly already promised cruise ships that the legislation for them to have their casinos open in port will be passed? Church and State need to be kept separate.

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    • Freedom says:

      So what is gonna happen when two gay men play ball in your yard? Exactly nothing I think you need to get to grips with your homophobia!

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    • Mad Dawg says:

      If I'm paying the mortgage and I own the property, according to Marc Bean I should have freedom over who I rent it to. That's what he said. so that would mean I could decide not to rent it to, say, old people. Or single people. Or black people. Once you can discriminate it's a slippery slope.

      As for your question, perhaps a landlord might take a dislike to the way black people play in the yard while his kids are there. A good excuse to discriminate against them, right?

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      • james says:

        Exactly. According to Mark Bean I guess it would be ok for a business owner to say not sell their products/services to old, single, black people, etc.? How does one justify that?! You can't allow for discrimination against who you 'sell' your apartment to and not allow others to do the same at their place of employment... What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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    • Sooooo says:

      Would you prefer a pedafile as a tennant? Is he OK just because he is straight (to a degree)? Would you let him play with your kids?

      I may be wrong but I believe that descriminating against someone because of a crimminal conviction is already in the act....

      My kids both grew up with friends of various sexual persuasions and were taught that everone is unique.

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    • longtail says:

      “Would you want two gay men as tenants barbecuing and kicking ball with your kids while your out working in your back yard” This is a totally idiotic statement: being gay - like being black or white - is not a condition that one catches in a playground, or by kicking ball in a backyard! Family Man (below) is correct - this is stupidity on a whole new level. You really do need to get to grips with your homophobia!

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      • The nitty gritty says:

        This is all so educational, hopefully the young'uns are reading these comments so they can understand that just cuz you get older doesn't mean you necessarily grow up.
        The sheer ignorance and overt prejudice coming out of some homophobes making comments shows us what we are up against.
        All the diplomacy and good Christian sermons are worthless against the onslaught of this neolithic thinking. "..two gay men barbecuing and kicking ball with your kids while your out working in your back yard"!!!!? RUFS? First of all why aren't they barbecuing and kicking ball in the back yard with you while you work?? huh? thought of that bro? Case closed, gay men not a danger to your kids or the hot coals. Hope you aint making DNA replicas.

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  22. R you serious!!! says:

    With Age

    Who discriminates more then the insurance companies. When a young or old person enrolls for insurance on a job. Insurance companies discriminate if a person young or old is sick or if a person is just OLD!

    I don't see no one fighting against that!!!

    After you reach your limit after working for the system for 50 years all they do is deny your CLAIMS!!!

    What's more crazy then that.

    Let's be for real, who would hire a 70 year old men to work construction, if the powers that be would just sort out our pensions we would have to discuss this foolishness!!!

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    • Family Man says:

      Wow, those two comments take stupid to a whole new level.

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    • Building a better Bermuda says:

      I am share Family Man's statement 'WOW'. Let us explore this some more:

      Insurance. The insurance companies are just that; companies, businesses, and the average person will see 2/3rds of the money spent on their health in the last 1/3 of their life. Any company selling a service that covers your health cost for you not only needs to make sure they make enough money off you to payout you health costs, but to cover their overheads like payroll and government taxes and also profit margins. Locally, some of those taxes are directly on your premiums. If they gave away health costs, they would quickly not be a company and their would be a lot of unemployed people. Those insurance systems that are not profit based have great trouble when claims exceed premiums, they don't have profit margins to fall into. Where you have natational health plans, you have high income taxes. Take less issue with the companies that cover you and more with institutions that keep charging them more for the coverage.

      Second, in know of a couple of elderly that work construction, and do a better job than those 40 - 50 years their younger, I'd hire them for some jobs. But let's face it, their aren't that many elderly who would seek high risk jobs.

      Most of what you have to say shows a lack of desire to fully explore the depths of many issues in reality, however, I do agree that the powers that be have pooched our pensions system.

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  23. navin johnson says:

    Mr. Burgess does not want to offend the Church for fear of losing a few votes....that is what this whole "debate" is about.....gutless Derrick....separate church and state....forget votes for a moment if that is possible for you....

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    • pepper says:

      So Derrick wil be guided by his church !!!!!!!!!!!on gay right issues....I have rented my apt to gay women and men...and they are the greatest people ever.
      So how does Derrick feel about members of his party that are gay or lesbians ?
      and how do they feel about him ?

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    • The nitty gritty says:

      That's Premier Burgess to you lowly taxpayer sir.

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  24. Freedom says:

    Our tourism site,is pinked up with pink shorts that most so called real men are not brave enough to wear so what we waiting for let's be a progressive party and be a gay friendly island .......what ? No way you say We don't need their money we are rich and prosperous already ! You saw how we are getting International business outta here What's that you say our pink sand is not for everyone lol boy don't make me roar! You lot need to book Ur ticket for carabana or miami etc we all love those those wild party trips....what's that you say " I need a trip this island is so boring" lol lol.

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  25. Sandgrownan says:

    I'm still stunned that this needs to be debated at all. Do the right thing, just for once.

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  26. Sandgrownan says:

    Oh, and the churches do not get to opt out.

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  27. Shaking the Head says:

    Does the AME Church, for example, accept donations/tythes from gay people? If they do then they must accept that such people are no different to what they consider "normal" and therefore defeats any position ffrom the Church that discrimates against gays.

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  28. Boom Bye Bye says:

    Gay people dont need 'special rights". leave things as is.

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    • longtail says:

      No one is asking for 'special rights' - just the same rights for gays that every other human being already enjoys.

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    • Once again. says:

      Just goes to show how much you understand the issue .
      They're not asking for special rights. Just the same rights you have to not be discriminated against for being straight , married , fat , ugly , handicapped , black ,female, expat , christain or any religion , poor , rich or even stupid.

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  29. The nitty gritty says:

    I cannot speak as a gay person but I have many friends who are. They exhibit all the same qualities
    and weaknesses of heterosexuals.
    They have only one difference and that is they were born with the preference to be romantically/sexually attracted members of their same sex.
    Yes they as a group are in the minority amongst the population (as far as we know)
    So does this not sound like the discrimination Black people faced when they were a minority and had
    to fight the MIGHT MAKES RIGHT thinking? Seems that people take their membership in the majority population as proof their belief system is the only legitimate one, despite the overwhelming non emotional evidence to the contrary.
    I agree that the churches are not the decider on social issues for the society. We can respect their
    dealings WITHIN their various internal systems but they need to show the same tolerance for the
    many who do not follow their beliefs, and we know how intolerant religion is!

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  30. let God deal wit it says:

    Laws bills should b based on the bible. Some laws contridict God. And all these goverments around the world only create CORRUPTION. All this is, is more under handed corruption. If everybody in bermuda was gay we would destroy Bda n wipe out human race. They pass this more gay right acts will follow. If u want to decrease crime n live in peace U in the closet Mps need to think GODs WAY.

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    • Freedom says:

      @Let God deal with, well your theory is not working so far when you lock your doors at night in bermuda these days it's not gay folk you are keeping out !Plus our young people seem to be doing a good job at your wipe out thing ,maybe if we were all gay ( the craziest human thought ever that will never happen , even back when the Stubbs bill was passed way back some politicians said gay people would be parading down the streets of Hamilton kissing and holding hands ,that homophobic thought never happened either) we would enjoy more love in Bermuda,God created all forms in the human race we all will answer to God only in the end ,NOT the government of Bermuda or any religious fanatic!

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    • RKennedy says:

      Yea that would be just great! Living just like the middle eastern countries, where half of their ancient laws and unfortunately new laws are based on "their" bible and all they are doing is torturing and killing one another in the name of "their" God, please lets not even stat to include corruption SMH! if that is the answer we definitely will be in some serious trouble..

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    • Building a better Bermuda says:

      So you wish to live in a country with laws based on god, I can recommend a couple of good Taliban controlled regions you could emigrate to. I can think of some serious criminals that could do with a stoning. Seems to me you think you have the answers and that we should follow you.

      All will answer to what they believe in, after the body ends, but in this world we must make sure that all have the equal right to pursue life, liberty and happiness and that those who would violate these basic freedoms of others for their own are punish appropriately.

      Basically, you have the right to you belief, just not the right to force it on others. You don't like this, again see my opening line..

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    • Common Sense says:

      The bible is crystal clear on the issue of ADULTERY. Leviticus 20.13 states that the adulterer and adulteress shall surely be put to death. Deuteronomy 22.22 also makes it abundently clear, not only that both the adulterer and adulteress shall die, but that this is the way to purge evil.

      Can "let God deal wit it(sic)" please advise what he or she intends to do to urge our Government and our churches to support the passage of a law "based on the bible" to make it a criminal offence to commit adultery. I personally think the death penalty is a little extreme and may not fly with the public, but life imprisonment would be a great alternative to purge this evil. Surely this would be God's way.

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    • chris says:

      I'm not a Christian (I'm gonna go ahead and assume you are.) I'm some other religion. So I'm supposed to follow your so called 'God laws'? Why? Because your religion is the true one? You're interpretation of God is no more valid than the countless others.

      Also, what makes you think giving equal rights to gays will suddenly turn all of Bermuda gay? What makes you think anything will change at all? They are already gay... And the human race is still here.

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    • .am says:

      I'd love to know how many violent crimes in Bermuda have been committed by people born into gay families [obviously none] or by gay folk in general.

      Any stats for us, o wise one?

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  31. Limey says:

    I thought Derrick Burgess MP represented his constituency, not his church!! I wonder how many of his constitutents are members of the AME church, and if its a majority, then fair enough! But see my point?

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  32. Navin Johnson says:

    And Minister Burgess will be guided by his church...oh that he did the same for all of his other political dealings

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    • pepper says:

      Derrick is all about himself.. the A.M.E,should be ashamed to have him as a member of their church.

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  33. Mad Dawg says:

    Perhaps Derrick Burgess could remind us of the democratic process by which 'the church' ( whatever that means) won the right to have any influence over which laws are passed?

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  34. Triangle Drifter says:

    So the MPs spend how many hours blowing alot of hot air on the issue & what do they have to show for it at the end?

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    • Building a better Bermuda says:

      Nadda, this was a note taking, which basically means we paid them our tax dollars to sit around and discuss the issue and not a legislation, so that they can look like they are doing something, without actually doing anything. Can we get a credit back to the public purse, from Blakeney's pay check, for all the MP's hours he wasted.

      The simple fact is, if you add sexual orientation to the equal rights, but don't believe they should have the right to marry, you don't actually believe in equality, but in keeping an institution of segregation for the sake of a theocracy over democracy.

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  35. Billy Mays says:

    Those who somehow oppose this legislation are, in fact, bigots. There is no other explanation. They may not think of themselves that way, but they are. Same as racists. Exactly the same. This includes Burgess. He is a bigot. If a church preaches against equality, they are teaching bigotry. This is not a complex issue except that it deals with long-held hatred. This should be passed by unanimous consent and it does not require debate any more than racial discrimination is debatable. SAME EXACT THING. ZERO DIFFERENCE. Some may feel otherwise. They are wrong.

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  36. The nitty gritty says:

    The churches are filled to brimming over with sinners! That's what keeps them in business.
    Not a church nor denomination on this Isle (that boasts some world records for over concentration), can hold their head up and claim the actual Word of God, not the Man written Bible of suspect translations, has come upon them and stated He did not create people who are gay and will be severely punishing anyone who is. He sure punished the Jews in World War 11, Black Africans during 300 years of slave taking, 19 million Russians under Stalin and Hitler...yeah you see where this is going?

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  37. CHEE KUMS BI says:

    There is no reason why we should alter the human rights act for people who practice a sexual act. That makes no sense. The human rights act covers everyone, now if a group of humans comes out and says "HEY I LIKE MAKING LOVE TO DOGS AND I WANNA MARRY MY DOG DONT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST ME CHANGE THE LAWS". We would most definitly say that what you wish to do in your own home is up to you but we will not alter laws based on your prefference of who OR WHAT you have sex with.

    I have never seen a group of straight people marching up and down telling the world that they are heterolsexuals and that they demand heterolsexual rights. You never see a straight person get up and announce "HEY IM A MAN AND I LOVE WOMEN I HAVE SEX WITH WOMEN ACCEPT ME WORLD"
    Homosexuals do nothing but boast about their sexual act, what makes one a homosexual? The fact that they are either a man and they love to have a--- and o--- sex with other men, or that they are a women and they love to have o--- sex and kiss other women.
    Now why should laws be changed just because your proud of who you choose to have sex with???
    If you leave your sexuality out of it the human rights act covers you!
    But if you bring your sexuality into it, especialy a sexual act that the world is not comfortable with, then, and only then, will you meet opposition from majority of other people that practice a normal sexual practice which should remain in the bedroom and in the home.
    You cant go to a job interview and say
    " yes im looking to be hired and by the way sir I can see by the ring on your finger that, that tells me your married to a lovely woman,
    Interviewier says"(WHY YES IVE BEEN MARRIED FOR 20 YEARS but about the job.....) "
    Sorry to cut you off... well I like a--- sex im a homosexual, just wanted to throw that out there so you would know (0_O)...but umm yeah could you tell me more about the janitor position at this middle school....
    And you expect no one to say something lol.. keep your sexual prefrence to yourself and we would keep our coments to ourself, speak out about your sexual prefrence, then we will speak out about ours.

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    • Jason says:

      Possible the worst argument ever made.

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    • .am says:

      "I have never seen a group of straight people marching up and down telling the world that they are heterolsexuals and that they demand heterolsexual rights."

      That would obviously be because they already have those rights, and so choose to march up and down and piss and moan about other things instead, from the things that don't matter (anything BIU) to those that do (racial and gender equality, etc.)

      --

      "You never see a straight person get up and announce “HEY IM A MAN AND I LOVE WOMEN I HAVE SEX WITH WOMEN ACCEPT ME WORLD”"

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

      And basically every hip-hop/rap/r&b song. Ever.

      --

      "Homosexuals do nothing but boast about their sexual act"

      Homosexuals don't 'boast' that they're gay - they're simply proud that they have the cojones to stand up for who and what they are. No different from being 'black and proud', is it?

      --

      "You cant go to a job interview and say.."

      You can - you just probably won't get the job. You do seem to have this fascination with a--- sex, though. Every turn ..you're bringing it up - like homosexuals don't actually do anything else but bugger each other all day long, and in turn it's the only conversation they're able to have with the rest of society. Do straight men interrupt their interviewers with their sexual tendencies and preferences? Do they talk about 'running tr&^%' on some poor girl? Being a baby daddy to six kids from five different mothers? Do they touch on their infidelity? Venereal diseases? Fetishes?

      Sex is sex is sex is sex. And I assure you - there are far more taboo things happening in straight households than I imagine you'd ever find within the average gay couples.

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    • Dantes Inferno says:

      "... especially a sexual act that the world is not comfortable with"

      Typical Religious zealot, trying to speak for the world.

      By the way what you are comfortable with is not anyone's concern

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    • holllllaarr!!! says:

      @cheekumsbye-I like..I like..hmm sounds pretty sensible to me.. bottom line, do what you want behind closed doors...by the way I know people who thought they were gay and then straigtened up! hmm.. is it optional?? I was born pretty brown and female to parents whom I could never change so my predicament is pretty much settled dun diel!!No flip flops here... get over yourselves people your importance is not what others think of you but what you think of yourself!!

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  38. R U Serious says:

    @ CHEE KUMS BI,

    Agreed!!!

    In the last days, men will become lovers of themselves. When we look at the function of organs and what they are used for I'm sure everyone in their right mind would agree that the functioning male organ is different of that of a functioning female organ. Semen is meant to go in the womb, not up the backside where bowels are released!!! This is unnatural or not normal!!! Why should we amend a law for nonsense. Next it will be the discrimination of weed, crack, herion, and everything else because of what we love to do.....Worlds gone CRAZY!!!

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    • .am says:

      So why is it - if sex is strictly for procreational purposes between different genders - that women have an EXTERNAL source of stimulation [the clitoris] and men have an INTERNAL one [the prostate]?

      --

      Aside:

      "Semen is meant to go in the womb, not up the backside where bowels are released!!! This is unnatural or not normal!!!"

      Nor onto peoples faces, chests, into condoms or tissues, etc etc. AND YET SOMEHOW IT STILL DOES.

      SHOCK. HORROR.

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      • chris says:

        Save your breath, R U Serious and CHEE KUMS BI are really good at this ignorance thing but not so much rationality.

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  39. R U Serious says:

    @.AM

    The prostate is a source of stimulation.....R U serious??? Don't feel that way when I get that prostate exam.....R U talking from experience??? Please tell me no more.....Sounds SICK!!!

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    • chris says:

      Okay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate#Male_sexual_response. READ IT. God made you, so God made something 'sick' about you. I wonder if God made other sick things... Like homosexuality? Get it together, have you no capacity for reason?

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    • .am says:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen_collection

      "Semen collection refers to the process of obtaining semen from domestic animals or humans with the use of various methods, for the purposes of artificial insemination, or medical study (usually in fertility clinics). Semen can be collected via masturbation, prostate massage, artificial vagina, penile vibratory stimulation (vibroejaculation) and electroejaculation. Also, sperm cells can be retrieved directly from the testicles by testicular sperm extraction (TESE)."

      Amazing what you can find on the Google machine, no?

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  40. CHEE KUMS BI says:

    TO THE POSTER CALLED AM
    @.AM SAID:

    "That would obviously be because they already have those rights, and so choose to march up and down and piss and moan about other things instead, from the things that don’t matter (anything BIU) to those that do (racial and gender equality, etc.)"

    I SAID:
    Show me where in the human rights act that there is a section for straight people, or that there is a section for people who have regular sex (between a man and a woman)

    @.AM SAID:

    "And basically every hip-hop/rap/r&b song. Ever."

    I SAID:

    You have Elton John and numerous gay singers

    @.AM SAID:

    "Homosexuals don’t ‘boast’ that they’re gay – they’re simply proud that they have the cojones to stand up for who and what they are. No different from being ‘black and proud’, is it?"

    I SAID:

    Very different from racial pride! Im black and my ancestors have suffered and to see where we are today as a people and how far we have come to where we are headed instills racial pride and NOT racial discrimination. Being PROUD that you are a man and that you have a--- sex and oral sex with other men does not compare in any way to being proud to be black. Now if you wish to be proud to be a sodimite like the people back in biblical days then ok go right ahead but being poud that you have a--- sex is nothing big at all. And your right they have the cojones(the testicles cojones means testicles) The only problem is that they want laws to change simply because they like to do sexual things with cojones

    @.AM SAID:
    "You can – you just probably won’t get the job. You do seem to have this fascination with a— sex, though. Every turn ..you’re bringing it up – like homosexuals don’t actually do anything else but bugger each other all day long, and in turn it’s the only conversation they’re able to have with the rest of society. Do straight men interrupt their interviewers with their sexual tendencies and preferences? Do they talk about ‘running tr&^%’ on some poor girl? Being a baby daddy to six kids from five different mothers? Do they touch on their infidelity? Venereal diseases? Fetishes?"

    I SAID:

    There is no facination but once you describe yourself by your sexual preference then that is what your defined as,You say your a homosexual..what is a homosexual...a person who likes sex with the same sex, you havent defined yourself as an engineer, an Dr. a politition,a teacher, a mentor..ect ect... No you choose to call yourself a homosexual. Gay pride????Homosexual pride??? Your proud to have a--- sex????? thats not brave thats silly and no laws in Bermuda would change to suit a persons sexual prefrence!

    @.AM SAID:

    "Sex is sex is sex is sex. And I assure you – there are far more taboo things happening in straight households than I imagine you’d ever find within the average gay couples."

    I SAID:

    Im not getting into what happens in a persons house straight or not what goes on behind close doors is your business and i have no right to pry into your private life, but if you bring your strange behaviour from the privicy of your own home and into the society then expect people like me to speak against it. How can homosexuals complain about discrimination when i have yet to HEAR ONE HOMOSEXUAL SAY LETS HAVE HOMOSEXUAL AND HETEROLSEXUAL RIGHTS, Its all about the homosexual rights and they get upset when the heterolsexual speaks out against it that is discrimination against heterolsexuals from homosexuals.

    If you want rights then we as heterolsexuals should have rights as well, we make up the majority,if you go to court the majority of the jury decide your fate, well the majority of heterolsexuals should have their rights as well.
    And that is the right not see laws changed for a persons sexual preference...this includes heterolsexuals and homosexuals
    But wait the human rights act does this already!!!!!! So why are you homosexuals trying to discriminate against heterolsexuals????
    CHEE KUMS BI smh !!!!!

    hey bi off subject a lil bit does am stand for A--- MAN??? just asking

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    • chris says:

      This ignorance that you spew is far more consequential and detrimental than sodomy (prove me wrong). Surely God is not a fool, so surely you are not going to Heaven.

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    • .am says:

      Are you actually legitimately well and truly retarded?

      First and foremost - you did not 'say' those things. I quoted what you said in a very desperate attempt to make things as simple as humanly possible for that feeble little mind of yours. Obviously it was not enough - and I can't say I'm entirely surprised.

      I'll try and simplify it even more so, to better facilitate in your understanding.

      #### YOU

      "Show me where in the human rights act that there is a section for straight people, or that there is a section for people who have regular sex (between a man and a woman)"

      #### ME

      The piss poor argument that a lot of people seem to be putting forward is that sex is all about procreation, and homosexuals simply can't do that - but neither can women who are infertile nor men who are impotent. Their inability to be actively involved in the furthering of the human race renders them, essentially, disabled.

      Well - homosexuals can't procreate either.

      Both are against 'Natural Law' (and probably Canon Law too) so it only makes sense to say they are 'disabled'. Disabilities can't be discriminated against, so homosexuals shouldn't be either.

      Not a fan of that logic? The alternative is that you admit that sexual orientation is NATURAL. And if it's natural, then 'regular sex' is simply what happens between two people.

      But seriously - what exactly is this 'regular sex' you speak of? Is this according to the Bible? And which interpretation of it do you suggest we use?

      "An authoritative answer to these questions can come only from our Creator—Jehovah God. And in his Word he tells us to “flee from fornication.” (1 Corinthians 6:18) Just what does that mean? The Greek word translated “fornication” is not restricted to sexual intercourse but includes a variety of lewd acts. So if two unmarried people engage in oral sex or in fondling each others’ reproductive organs, they are guilty of fornication."

      In it's most extreme and literal sense, you can only engage in any sexual act after you are married. Anything outside of wedlock is deemed fornication and, in turn, not 'regular' sex.

      I suspect you're guilty of such things and, in turn, are no 'better' than those who engage in acts with members of the same sex.

      Sucks for you.

      #### YOU

      You have Elton John and numerous gay singers.

      #### ME

      I responded to your claim that straight people don't go around saying “HEY IM A MAN AND I LOVE WOMEN I HAVE SEX WITH WOMEN" by posting a link to a video that OPENS with the following lyrics:

      I just had sex and it felt so good
      A woman let me put my penis inside of her
      I want to tell the world

      If you need me to toss a little more misogyny your way, give the following a listen:

      Ying Yang Twinz “The Whisper Song”
      Cam’ron “Suck It or Not”
      Tupac “I Get Around”
      Plies “Becky”
      Snoop “Ain’t No Fun” (If The Homies Can’t Have None)
      Akinyele “Put It In Your Mouth”
      Lil Jon “Get Low”
      David Banner “Play”

      In short: men, talking about having sex with women, and telling the world.

      Gay artists you might know of:

      Tonex (Gospel Singer [forgive me for stereotyping])
      Clay Aiken
      Ricky Martin
      Neil Tennant (Pet Shop Boys)
      George Michael
      Boy George
      The Village People
      Michael Stripe (R.E.M)
      Freddy Mercury (Queen)

      Gay artists that you might know of that have referenced homosexuality/same sex acts in their music:

      ..

      See my point?

      #### YOU

      "Very different from racial pride! Im black and my ancestors have suffered and to see where we are today as a people and how far we have come to where we are headed instills racial pride and NOT racial discrimination."

      #### ME

      You're black?! Well hot damn. I'd never have guessed. [:kanyeshrug:]

      "Gay pride or LGBT pride is the positive stance against discrimination and violence toward lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people to promote their self-affirmation, equality rights, increase their visibility as a social group, build community, and celebrate sexual diversity and gender variance. Pride, as opposed to shame and social stigma, is the predominant outlook that bolsters most LGBT rights movements throughout the world."

      #### YOU

      "There is no facination but once you describe yourself by your sexual preference then that is what your defined as,You say your a homosexual..what is a homosexual…a person who likes sex with the same sex, you havent defined yourself as an engineer, an Dr. a politition,a teacher, a mentor..ect ect… No you choose to call yourself a homosexual. Gay pride????Homosexual pride??? Your proud to have a— sex????? thats not brave thats silly and no laws in Bermuda would change to suit a persons sexual prefrence!"

      #### ME

      You keep on bringing up 'a--- sex' (tip: anal sex a--- sex means anal sex). In all my days (not as many as you on this earth, but I suspect far more in 'the real world') I have NEVER been privy to a conversation with a homosexual where they have brought up anal sex. EVER. I have never stated my occupation and, on asking what they do, been informed that they are gay and they like anal sex with other men. If this really is your only exposure to the gay community YOU SHOULD PROBABLY STOP GOING ONTO GAY DATING WEBSITES.

      Fun fact: Malcolm X was bisexual. Think about all that anal sex he was having the next time you enjoy your civil freedoms that he fought so hard for you to have.

      #### YOU

      "How can homosexuals complain about discrimination when i have yet to HEAR ONE HOMOSEXUAL SAY LETS HAVE HOMOSEXUAL AND HETEROLSEXUAL RIGHTS, Its all about the homosexual rights and they get upset when the heterolsexual speaks out against it that is discrimination against heterolsexuals from homosexuals."

      #### ME

      HFS. The discussion is about SEXUAL ORIENTATION. Not 'HOMOSEXUAL RIGHTS'. Do you know what sexual orientation is? YOU HAVE IT! You like women. Apparently. Or so you claim. BUT IT IS STILL YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. The **ONLY** thing these people are asking for is not to be discriminated because of THEIRS. It is EQUALITY.

      #### YOU

      "So why are you homosexuals trying to discriminate against heterolsexuals????"

      #### ME

      YOU homosexuals? Who are these people you speak of? I'm certainly not homosexual or even a smidgen bisexual - and I have a laundry list of names that can back that up.

      #### YOU

      "hey bi off subject a lil bit does am stand for A— MAN??? just asking"

      #### ME

      i) If you keep on confusing 'bi' with the Bermudian 'bye', people may mistake you for calling them bisexual.
      ii) .am is a tld for Armenia. It's also the tld for my website and - drum roll please - it actually happens to be my initials.

      Brilliant, I know.

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      • NASH says:

        PROVE THAT MALCOM X WAS BI SEXUAL

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      • NASH says:

        PLEASE SHOW HOW
        THAT MALCOM X WAS BI SEXUAL

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        • .am says:

          A quick trip to the Google machine:

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/oct/20/malcolm-x-bisexual-black-history

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          • Unbeliveablee says:

            Cause the internet is always 100% correct right? I find your assertions to be baseless and inaccurate. This website lacks provenance.

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        • .am says:

          Want to know what's particularly fantastic? If MX was alive and well and living here in Bermuda, he could be denied all those things you feel he should be entitled to ..because he's bisexual. There is no proof required - belief is enough. If your employer was equally as homophobic as you are and I informed them you bat for the other team, you could lose your job and not be able to do a damn thing about it because you don't think that sexual orientation is something that shouldn't be discriminated against.

          Note to employers: keep this in mind if you want to terminate someone. Just say it's because they're gay - and you're golden.

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      • CHEE KUMS BI says:

        Malcom x was bisexual>????????? rofl you sound just like a white racist that will do anything to try to force their point of view across. You would even dip into Black history and try to distort and disgrace a man who is honorable,and of much greater character than you, there is no end to your wicked ways. Malcom x was bisexual wow...please show evidence of this,if you cant and for sure you cant then you have just labled yourself as a liar and a person that fabricates and distorts history for their own personal gain. cheek kums by smh...malcom x was a bisexual smh chee kums bi...what a liar

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        • lmfao says:

          i bet you feel pretty dumb right now

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        • .am says:

          I sound like a white racist for acknowledging that a prominent black figure who was an advocate for racial equality liked to suck a bit of d— from time to time?

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        • chris says:

          "try to distort and disgrace a man who is honorable" in light of the article .am linked to, you are implying he is disgraceful... oh how the tables have turned. ROFL

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        • Dantes Inferno says:

          "a person that fabricates and distorts history for their own personal gain"

          SOUNDS LIKE EVERYONE WHO Preached THE BIBLE EVER.

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      • BdaLuvin says:

        Tell him Alex!!
        This Island is in a piss poor state and has not been able to keep up with the times because of ignorant people such as @CHEE KUMS BI not the mention the Bible thumpers.
        Please go read a book or better yet buy a plane ticket off the rock to see how the rest of the world has progressed!

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  41. Billy Mays says:

    So are you saying that heterosexuals don't engage in any sexual contact other than "traditional" sexual intercourse? No oral sex? No a--- sex? No promiscuity? Either you're breathtakingly ignorant or astoundingly sheltered.
    Regardless, sexual activity is a most private matter which is the business of those involved. Period. This has nothing to do with the "act" so to speak (if it did, the discussion should be banning "non-traditional" sexual contact by any and all... which is of course absurd prima facie). This has to do with how different human beings are to be treated based on a characteristic over which they have no control, like hair color or race. Humans choose how they express themselves sexually, but they do not choose to whom they are attracted.

    As a heterosexual father, I would be - and am - completely comfortable for myself and my family to be working playing and living alongside good people of all genders, races, sexual orientations, etc. I was raised to judge a person based on the content of their character, nothing else. I suggest you, "ru serious" and "chee kums" consider the content of your own characters before judging others. I'd so much rather live next to a gay couple than the likes of you.

    If there is a God who is the creator, that God created us all. Hetero and homosexual; blonde, brunette or redhead; right-handed or left-handed; and yes, black, brown, red, yellow or white. Perhaps it would be best to let God be the judge of those wonderful creations.

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    • CHEE KUMS BI says:

      @Billy mays
      "So are you saying that heterosexuals don’t engage in any sexual contact other than “traditional” sexual intercourse? No oral sex? No a— sex? No promiscuity? Either you’re breathtakingly ignorant or astoundingly sheltered"

      HOMOSEXUAL is a man with a man or a woman with a woman and they are defined by their sexual act and what they prefer sexually plain and simple. You must be breathtakingly ignorant to overlook this fact. Even if a heterolsexual partakes in anal wit another heterolsexual..man and woman (ewwww that is gross) nevertheless they still wont call themself a homosexual. Just that their sexual acts with each other is strange, nevertheless its a man and a woman.

      "Regardless, sexual activity is a most private matter which is the business of those involved. Period. This has nothing to do with the “act” so to speak (if it did, the discussion should be banning “non-traditional” sexual contact by any and all… which is of course absurd prima facie). This has to do with how different human beings are to be treated based on a characteristic over which they have no control, like hair color or race. Humans choose how they express themselves sexually, but they do not choose to whom they are attracted."

      Thats a crock of B.S. you do choose who your attracted to thats why you choose to go after that woman or man. If you wanna be a homosexual thats fine have all the a-- sex you want but why should laws be passed simply because you prefer to have a--- sex and that your proud that your a man who loves men?? And that laws should be set in place so that your sexual preference is accepted. If the laws of bermuda decided to force Christiananity on you you would kick up and say thats not fair im not a christian and dont want to be....but you would support homosexuals forcing their sexual prefrence on heterolsexuals when as a heterolsexual we dont even have any laws in place and never asked for any laws to be put in place for us??? Its utter nonsense and those who want to change the law is accepting to force a way of life on us that we dont accept.
      No one discriminates because of sexual orientaton unless they are open about their sexual orientation. You cant expect to be hired to clean male bathrooms at a gym if you tell them that your attracted to males a--- and you like to have sex with male a--- (ie a homosexual), you can expect to be discriminated against. However if you keep that to yourself then there is no harm and people wont discriminate against you. But you want a law put in place where you can take a gym to court because they wouldnt hire you as a jainitor because you like male anus......Thats utter nonsense

      "As a heterosexual father, I would be – and am – completely comfortable for myself and my family to be working playing and living alongside good people of all genders, races, sexual orientations, etc. I was raised to judge a person based on the content of their character, nothing else. I suggest you, “ru serious” and “chee kums” consider the content of your own characters before judging others. I’d so much rather live next to a gay couple than the likes of you."

      I can live beside all good people, however there is nothing good about my neighbor if he tries to force me to accept his strange way of life that is practiced behind closed doors. I jjude actions and it is actions that should be judged. And as a father if you young son saw two men kissing and saying i love you in the open if you was to tell your son "thats ok son they love each other and thats normal" im sure that you would raise hell if you saw your son kissing another boy lovingly on the lips. Children learn from their enviornment and if your comfortable with forcing laws on society then i'm sure your comfortable with your child learning the ways of a homosexual......i doubt it ..

      "If there is a God who is the creator, that God created us all. Hetero and homosexual; blonde, brunette or redhead; right-handed or left-handed; and yes, black, brown, red, yellow or white. Perhaps it would be best to let God be the judge of those wonderful creations."

      You cant mix genetics with choices.. being born blonde... or being born black, white ... is by genitics you cant control that, being left handed is something that is learned being heterolsexual or homosexual is something that is learned and then a choice is made... and we are allowed to judge peoples actions dont be so silly, im sure if someone robs you or kills someone you know.. you would want society to judge that person and put them in jail, God created us and He created us to have the ability to judge between right and wrong those who cant is not blessed with correct judgement, im sure you judge people everyday, if a crack head comes to you for money i bet your judgement would kick in faster than if a little cute girl scout comes asking for donations, so spare us the garbage about we shouldnt judge. Dont try to set laws in place based off of your sexual preference, and i wont judge you for that.

      Funny and hypocritical of you to say let God be the judge when you started off your response by judging me and saying that im either ignorant or astoundingly sheltered,and that was your judgement of me and that is how you addressed me but now you say dont judge?? You even said that you would prefer to live next to a homosexual than the likes of me, another judgement. Dont be so hypocritical, you can judge but other people cant????....
      Chee Kums Bi....smh

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      • I gotta be me says:

        Hey we're living in the year 2012! Why don't you try and catch up!

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      • Dantes Inferno says:

        You are the dumbest person in Bermuda. Hopefully.

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        • CHEE KUMS BI says:

          Hopefully is not a full sentence, your calling someone dumb and you cant even structure a sentence. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH CHEE KUMS BI HAHHAHA.............Hopefully fullstop.....and im dumb hahahhahaha

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          • Dantes Inferno says:

            CBA REPRESENT

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          • Billy Mays says:

            @chee, where do I begin?
            You are plainly ignorant if you believe that sexual preference is a choice. It very simply is not; this has been shown repeatedly to be the case. If you are unaware of that fact, you had best learn something before you demonstrate your ignorance. In fact, that you think that left-handedness is also learned is laughable.
            Matter of fact, it would take me too long to point out all of the fallacies and ignorance in your reply, and clearly you cannot be educated, so I won't waste any more of my time.
            I agree with Dante's Inferno; you are the dumbest person in Bermuda. And in the context in which s/he used the word "hopefully", it's grammatically correct. That's ok; I wouldn't expect you to know any more about grammar or rhetoric than you do about human sexuality, genetics... or anything else for that matter.

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  42. OhMeOhMy says:

    What does being gay or being a certain age have to do with the entitlement of employment and accommodation and services? This is absurd. Just because a person is gay does not mean they don’t have any common sense or they are not responsible people. Some of the brightest people are gay. Just because a person is gay, this does not mean they are just consumed with thought of having sex with a person of the same sex and want to be in a relationship all the time... If they choose to be gay, that is on them. If they are not bothering you, leave it alone. I understand that they will perhaps be setting an example for young people.. however when these young people grow up, they will soon learn that they too will one day make their own decisions that society may not agree with (despite the exemplary behavior from gays) I can’t speak that much on age discrimination as I am not too familiar with what is going on in regards to that... however I know that "with age comes wisdom".

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  43. Keepin It The Realist says:

    Im all for gay rights. but the "sexual orientation" addition is a bit broad. I want to be able to to refuse someone who has sex with trees or some weird crap.

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  44. Liberal says:

    Just throwing in a bit of input here. Gay people should have as much rights as straight people. Bottom line. Most people are basing their arguement on the Bible and quite frankly just as being gay (is thought sometimes) to be a personal decision, so is being a Christian. I often wish when the time for making ethical decisions in politics comes about, politicians would set aside their own personal sentiments and make decisions based on logic and not emotion or what "god told them to do" Basing your existence and way of life on the Bible is looked at by many of the world as malarchy. Just because most Bermudian politicians are Christians, does not entitle them to make a decision when they're already biased to the situation. I'm a Christian, and based on the good book, discrimination against anyone is a sin. As Christians we should know that God gave us the ability to make our own decisions, and choose our own paths. And we should follow that. We should not prevent people from living somewhere or having a job based on sexual orientation whether or not we agree with what they do in their bedrooms, because we are not in their with them. That would be like telling a black woman she can't live somewhere because she dates a white man. Being gay in many cases is what you are, not who you are. Just as being black is what you are, not who you are... If I didn't make sense someone correct me

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