Starling: ‘Same Sex Marriage Right Thing To Do’

July 14, 2013

[Opinion column written by Jonathan Starling] The Opposition Leader, Marc Bean, recently spoke on a local television channel on his position regarding same-sex marriage.

He – and others – seems to be committed to making the issue of same-sex marriage a topic of our local political discourse.

During the parliamentary debate around amending the Human Rights Act to include sexual orientation, some MPs argued their fear that the amendment would lead to calls for same-sex marriage, although such a topic had not been broached previously.

In reaction the OBA MPs, and the Premier, made it quite clear that (as the Premier said) ‘this would not happen under their watch’.

And yet, due to the very actions of those who insist on making this an issue, it has become, in a self-fulfilling prophecy way, an issue in our political and social discourse.

As far as I am aware, not one politician has voiced support for same-sex marriage, although several (including both party leaders) have voiced their opposition to it.

In as much as it is now a topical issue, I want to quite clearly state that not only do I not have a problem with same-sex marriage being made legal in Bermuda, I think it is the right thing to do.

While there are some valid critiques of the very notion of the institution of marriage, to me equal marriage and civil union rights are a right and natural step towards a modern, tolerant and progressive Bermuda.

It is often said that the State cannot (and should not) legislate morality.

This may be true, but the State can, and does, legislate legal rights and protections – and it does, indeed, legislate marriage.

I want to make it clear that for me, whatever consensual individuals (and consensual by definition includes that the individuals are of the age of consent) chose to do with their bodies, is up to them.

The focus should not be on the sex of the individuals involved, but on their engaging in activities and/or a relationship which mutually affirms and generates pleasure for both individuals concerned.

Should two consenting individuals chose to enter into a long-term relationship with one another, then I think they should be afforded the full legal rights and protections that currently exist under the legal concept of marriage/civil unions.

The impact of having access to these legal protections and rights should not be underestimated for the individuals involved. The threat of losing a home or pension in old age with the death of a partner, a loved one, can add financial stress to the emotional burden.

I believe that should these individuals seek to have this relationship formalised in a religious ceremony, they should have the right to do so if the religious body is willing to host it – in other words I feel that the religious bodies should have the right to opt-in for such ceremonies.

On this issue I think it is, frankly, irrelevant if ones sexual orientation is biological or ‘chosen’.

While my belief is that it is the former, the issue for me is whether the individuals involved love each other and wish to have a long-term relationship.

Our focus should not be on the sex of those involved in relationships but in ensuring these relationships are life-affirming; far too often relationships – of any sexual orientation – are subject to abuse, be it physical or psychological, including marital rape.

Furthermore, all too often – regardless of the sexual orientations involved – there is an unequal burden in terms of domestic labour, with, at least in heterosexual couples, the burden of childcare and household chores falling disproportionately on females.

Jonathan Starling has degrees in Ecological Economics and Urban and Regional Planning, and is well known in the online community through his Catch-A-Fire blog, which he has maintained since 2007. He ran as Independent candidate in C#20 Pembroke South West in the 2012 General Election

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  1. boom bye bye says:

    Why is this such an issue! ? Is it really that many gay people here? Are they All trying to get married? ?
    I don’t get it.

  2. Nuffin but da Truth says:

    no one cares what the plp think or say anymore…they are finished!

  3. Vote for Me says:

    This posting is contradictory. If Starling believes everyone is falsely making same sex marriage an issue, why give it more prominence by writing a piece about it.

    One good thing – both Cannonier and Bean oppose it. Therefore we should not see an amendment to the Marriage Act in at least the next 5 years.

    On a related note, there are opinions bot for and against same sex marriage. Unfortunately any opinons against are quickly labelled as homophobic, which is ridiculous!!

  4. against says:

    Who ever wrote this article is gay. Listen ppl being gay is wrong. Is murder wrong? Yes. Start treating this commandment like the rest. If ur trying to make the world a better place stop going against the bible. Stop making laws that contradict the bible. The only reason the politicians back this is because they r flaming fags. Point blank god said its wrong so its wrong. Get your bible morals straight. Gay ppl wouldn’t b here if it wasn’t for their straight parents. Gay is a disease, a sickness.

    • WetOnion says:

      Stupidity is a sickness, bigotry is a sickness. They’re diseases destroying this island at an astronomical rate. You’re show clear symptoms my friend. What is wrong with Homosexuality, really think about, ignore what the bible says, because the bible also says a lot of weird, pre dated crap. Not saying it’s a bad book I just think people take it too seriously. We are not completely useless as humans, we can figure some stuff out on our own. Lets go back to homosexuality. People argue, two men laying together cannot reproduce. WHY ON EARTH DO HUMANS NEED TO KEEP REPRODUCING? This planet is horribly over populated, gay people are doing this planet a solid. What self aware, self confident people are Homosexuals actually bothering? NONE. The only people that have issues with gay people are people who are struggling with themselves. You look to book to give you all the answers. Did you ever think you could even be being insulting towards God. I mean he think about it, he created us as the ultimate being on the planet, with this huge brain capable of some many amazing things, and all you bible bashers do is just go look to the book. NO INDEPENDENT THOUGHTS. I mean come on, use that beautiful brain he gave you.

      • WetOnion says:

        I typed this in a rush and the grammer is terrible, my apologies. The message is clear!

      • Wet onion if you thought against comments sounded ridiculous,I hope you read your own comments and then step back and think what you are saying.

        How on earth did you get here,did your mother go to a sperm bank or a stork delivered you.I am dealing directly with the content of your message and you sound illiterate,you can take the bible out of the equation if you want but in reality, it takes the male and the female to reproduce and the world is not over populated.

        There is enough land and wealth in the entire world to house and feed all humanity,the issue is greed when we see the suffrage that the world is experiencing. no amount of pounding the pavement on behalf of the gay movement will make it right in the sight of humanity.

        Call us bible critics,adulterers,fornicators and the like,it don’t change the fact …. or … makes it want your filth to be legislated is just that,filth.

        I have been everything that I could be in my own eyes but it did not make my lifestyle right and I say that Bermuda will pay dearly for allowing this filth into legislation. I wonder if we will legalize guns next.

        • Freedom says:

          Lets look at the arguments against:

          1. It’s against god’s will.
          –Aren’t we allowed freedom of religion. Why are all people bound to the rules of this book, which is not a part of everyone’s religion, or lack thereof. Why are the so-called “Christians” up in arms about the homosexuals being afforded the same rights as everyone else? I thought the bible said not to judge, that is your gods responsibility. Are you saying you can speak for god? I am pretty sure that is against the bible’s word.

          It’s simple, you live your lives and let thim live theirs.

          2. It is a choice:
          –Really? Why would anyone choose to be gay, especially in a place as homophobic as Bermuda? Until recently homosexuals could be denied a job, shelter, and services solely based on their sexual preference. Who would choose hat life.

          Also, tell me, could you choose to be gay? Could you, as a man, look at another man and say I want that? The only ones who could choose would be bisexuals. So the people who say it is a choice are obviously bisexuals, because they wouldn’t mind engaging in intercourse with a man or a woman. Someone who could choose to go either way is bisexual. If you are naturally attracted to the opposite sex you are heterosexual and had no choice in the matter. If you naturally are attracted to the same sex you are homosexual and had no choice in the matter. If you can choose to go with a man or a woman you are bisexual the ones that can choose.

          If you disagree with it then don’t marry the same sex, simple.

          3. Same sex couples cannot reproduce:

          –Are we not going to allow post-menopausal woman to marry? What about men who “shoot blanks”. There have been homosexuals all throughout history. I am pretty sure the population has been increasing regardless. What about couples that don’t want children and have no intention of having them should they not be allowed to marry?

    • Familiar says:

      I feel the need to point out that there are only ten commandments and ‘thou shalt not be gay’ happens to not be among them, so you might want to go back to the bible and do some more studying presuming, of course, that you’ve ever studied the bible.

      I could say a lot more, but until you get your commandments straight, I think it might be a waste of time.

    • Goose says:

      It’s not one of the ten commandments, it’s one of the laws laid out in the Book of Leviticus.

      If you’re going to start treating all laws laid out in the book of Leviticus equally you should be fighting the abolition of slavery.

      You should also start campaigning against work permits, as they mean we’re not treating the foreigners amungst us as born Bermudians. Unless they’re slaves because as you know, slaves are property not people.

      You should really read the Book of Leviticus before using it to justify your personal feelings, or issuing a statement such as “Start treating this commandment like the rest.”

  5. Frankie says:

    By definition, marriage requires consummation and to the best my knowledge neither buggery nor lesbian sex meet the criteria. Therefore the definition of marriage as we know it needs to be changed. I’m wondering if our legislators might also include animals when they get around to addressing this not so small matter. Though I have no intention of having any sexual relations whatsoever with him, I very much wish to marry my dog – he has proven far more faithful, loyal, forgiving, loving and understanding than any of my three ex wives and this is the least I can do for him.

  6. allison conyers says:

    “Stop making laws that contradict the bible.” ~~~ Who designated the Bible as the WORD..the “Law of the Land”? in my view it is neither!

    • Joe says:

      For those who believe the bible is all commanding/our laws shouldn’t contradict what it says please note that polygamy is already outlawed. And as seen in the bible marriage was far from ‘man and woman’ only… Where is the outcry for polygamy? Oh, right. One can pick and choose which parts of the bible are to be followed. Even within the same debate of ‘marriage’ these confused Christians talk out of both sides of their mouths…

      • Young Bermudian says:

        God designed marriage between one man and woman. Because of sin many in the Bible had more than one wife and it clearly shows the havoc of going against God’s original design (Abraham, Issac, David, Solomon to name a few). The beauty of the Bible is that it shows the good and the ugly but it reminds us that no matter what we do, if we repent and surrendor ourselves to God, we are forgiven.

    • Truth (Original) says:

      God did.

    • Sandy Bottom says:

      So we should have a law that stones adulterers to death then? And bring back slavery? Both are in the bible.

      • Sooooooo says:

        Lets not forget..

        1.Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.
        2.I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.
        3.I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
        4.I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.
        5.Eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10,
        6.Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.
        7.Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.
        8. Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean,
        9. Lev.19:19 planting two different crops in the same field.
        10. by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme (Lev. 20:14)

  7. We the People!! says:

    The only way same-sex marriage happens in Bermuda is if the people collectively allow it to happen via a referendum. A referendum is the ONLY way to vote on this issue.

    Morally same-sex marriage is wrong. Same-sex supporters you will never win a public debate on this issue by calling everyone who disagrees with same-sex marriage bigots and homophobic. That is not a defense.

    So please someone who supports same-sex marriage answer these two questions.
    1) Why is same-sex marriage not morally wrong?
    2) Why is same-sex marriage fundamentally right?

    • Truth (Original) says:

      Excellent point and questions..

    • WetOnion says:

      @We the people!!!.

      1.How is it morally wrong, who gets hurt by it? No one. If people want to be happy, let them. As long as no one is getting hurt by it, what is the issue. What happens behind closed doors is no ones business. People act like gays run around the streets with bull horns screaming out Boy Goerge lyrics looking like Eddie Izzard. Is it because gay couples cannot reproduce? Why do they need to, why does any couple need to? Look how over populated this planet is. I want you to actually tell me why it is morally wrong. What are they actually doing so bad, finding someone they love and trying to make something honest out of it?
      2. Same sex marriage is fundamentally right because Homosexuals are HUMAN BEINGS. They deserve the same rights as any other HUMAN BEING.

      are these even real questions?

      • We the People!! says:

        Let’s break down your arguments first.

        1. Who does it hurt? If people want to be happy, let them. As long as no one is getting hurt by it, what is the issue. What are they actually doing so bad, finding someone they love and trying to make something honest out of it.

        The main argument in the same-sex marriage debate, by same-sex supporters is ‘it’s the right thing to do.’ This argument is invoking “fairness,” fairness which tends to be rooted in moral relativism. Yet same-sex supports would say morals have no place in such a public debate.

        When a person claims he/she can do “whatever makes me/them happy” without public/government interference, but then qualifies that statement by saying “just as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone” or “but it should be between two consenting adults” we see a moral standard being slipped in.

        Moral relativism and rights (right thing to do) don’t mix. Relativism undermines any appeal to rights: If rights exist, relativism is false; if rights exist, where do they come from? If you do not believe in God or a creator in whose image humans have been made—then who sets the parameters regarding our sexuality. If society sets those parameters, then why is it illegal for an 18 year old boy to have sexual relations with his 17 year old girlfriend, who is less than six months in age difference. Who is it hurting? Why in some societies the age of consent is as low as 12 years old? Who is right and who is wrong?

        2. Same sex marriage is fundamentally right because Homosexuals are HUMAN BEINGS. They deserve the same rights as any other HUMAN BEING.

        So based on your logic, we shouldn’t restrict any kind of marriage or civil unions between humans.

        First, we change the definition of marriage or at least define it. Then why restrict it to two persons—or even to humans? If marriage is just socially constructed, then why should any marital arrangement be preferred over any other, and why should same-sex marriage get preferential treatment over others?

        Once we cast aside the time-tested male-female, one-flesh-union view of marriage in favour of marriage as individuals choose to define it, we have a grab bag of possibilities. Why not consider the following “marital arrangements” as having equal protections under the law? After all they are all HUMAN BEING.

        – Group marriage (say, six men and four women or vice versa). Why define marriage as involving two persons “committed” to each other?

        - Incestuous marriage (e.g., a father and a daughter, a mother with a son, a brother and a sister).

        – Bestial marriage (e.g., a human with a dog, cat, or horse). Why think that humans can’t marry nonhuman animals? This could be considered speciesism—inappropriately favouring your own species over others.

        - Polygamous or polyandrous marriage (a man with multiple wives or a woman with multiple husbands).

        – Marriage to self. A person may oppose “numbersism”—the prejudicial assumption that marriage must involve at least two persons.

        - Nonsexual marriage. Why not call university fraternities or sororities or two brothers sharing an apartment a “marriage”?

        - Marriage to material objects. Perhaps we can recognize a person for being married to his money, his job, etc.

        Marriage, in my opinion is a one-flesh union between husband and wife. A one-flesh union of husband and wife is more than just a sexual act; it is an expression of a deep interpersonal union that brings with it profound commitments and loyalties. The world has historically recognized—not invented the idea—that a husband-wife, one-flesh union reflects moral reality and human nature and the sexuality bound up with it.

        • WetOnion says:

          @We the people.

          Good job of just writting a bunch of absolute bollocks. I can’t hold a real debate with someone like you. Still you cannot give me a direct answer.

          • Young Bermudian says:

            We the People is spot on. The Gay marriage debate is highly emotive and without a guide book of sort moraility is left to whatever people feel is right.

          • Bermuda Cat says:

            @ WetOnion
            We the people didn’t write bollocks, he basically pulled apart your comment, and you don’t like it. I think you are the one who is not quite ready for a debate lol.

    • Familiar says:

      1) Why is same-sex marriage not morally wrong?

      I find it very hard to answer this question simply because I can’t fathom how anyone can think that it is morally wrong.

      When someone can explain to me why two people pledging their love and lives to one another is morally wrong, I might be able to come up with something.

      2) Why is same-sex marriage fundamentally right?

      People are supposed to be treated equally, all people.

      All people.

      Male. Female. Black. White. Christian. Muslim. Etc. (Yes, I’ve missed loads of categories.)

      I believe that not treating everyone equally is morally wrong.

      • Sandy Bottom says:

        75 years ago people would have been asking “why is interracial marriage not morally wrong?”

  8. Toodle-oo says:

    Maybe if the paranoid and narrow minded focus less on the term ‘marriage’ and more on the term ‘civil union’ it would take the hate and hysteria out of the discussion.

    Very progressive and liberal Jon . Well done .

  9. Wake up call says:

    This is the first time in a whole I have agreed with most of the comments on a bernews article. There must be some sensible people up this morning.

    Let this issue of gay marriage go! If you want to be gay so be it. There are a host of other ‘moral’ issues that we have to sort out as well amongst us however marriage is a religious/legal ceremony experienced between a man and woman. The first recorded being between Adam and Eve.

    One last thing… Shame on all ‘Christian’ leaders that have taken such a compromising stance on this and other moral issues that plague our community. God loves the sinner but hates the sin!

  10. Common Sense says:

    I would like to publicly thank “against” for proving beyond any shadow of doubt why we so urgently needed to amend our Human Rights Act to protect people against this kind of bigotry and homophobia. “Vote for Me” might complain at the suggestion that “against” is homophobic and bigoted, but here the reason for making this statement.

    “against” equates being gay with “murder” and says that we should start treating this “commandment” like the rest”! The fact is that being gay is not a crime or any kind of offence in Bermuda. To equate being gay with murder is sheer bigotry. Murder very clearly is a crime and is included in the Ten Commandments. Last time I checked, the Ten Commandments did not include being gay, but it did seem to mention adultery, and the bible equates adultery with murder because it lays down the punishment, which is death.

    If “against” wants to avoid contradicting the bible then he or she should be out demanding that adultery be made a crime and that it is given the same punishment as murder. But of course that will never happen because folks like “against” are very selective in quoting the bible, plus they would be laughed at if they tried to criminalize adultery because it is condemned as an abomination in the bible.

    Thank goodness the law now protects us against the type of bigotry and sickness displayed by “against”.

  11. Common Sense says:

    “Vote for Me” seems confident that because both the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition have stated they are not for gay marriage it will not pass during the next 5 years, but he should ponder for a moment the position that was initially adopted by President Obama on this exact issue.

    President Barack Obama once expressed the view that marriage was only for one man and one woman.

    But his position gradually evolved and he later backed civil unions for gay and lesbian couples, granting them many of the same rights and privileges as married heterosexuals.

    Now he firmly supports same sex marriage and his position has been strengthed by the recent decision of the Supreme Court.

    I would like to think that both our Premier and our Leader of the Opposition will evolve in their personal opinions and move with the times towards equality for all.

  12. Bermewjan says:

    Well said Jonathan!

  13. Paradise Reclaimed says:

    If Bermuda were to allow anyone to choose with whom to entrust at a commitment level that allows medical access and decision-making, estate rights, etc., how would it negatively effect the “traditionally married”?

    Liberty covers the rest. What “they” do may not be to my taste, I may find it quite objectionable but, might more than a few find your . . . bible-thumping or lack thereof . . . whiteness . . . blackness . . . richness . . . poverty . . . or that your kid’s bike is a little loud, be out there?

    The parallels between inter-racial marriage, what seems like ages ago, are uncanny. Is this the new dark age, but it’s just picking on a tiny minority, so it’s OK?

    How does what your neighbor chooses really effect your liberty?

  14. Muff diver says:

    Think if all were gay,humans would cease to exist in about 125 yrs.

    • Joe says:

      And that has what to do with anything? Allowing gay marriage won’t create more gays. You just don’t get it… This is simply to afford rights you have as a straight person to those with a different sexual orientation. The gay couple you see on Front Street will still be there whether this passes or not. So what difference does it make to you?

  15. Truth says:

    My belief? (If you are interested? :) )
    1. God wants love
    2. God wants us to procreate.
    3. God does not condone the oppression of human beings.
    Now you figure it out….

    • Truth says:

      To be clear … “Us” meaning “humanity” … Certainly not ALL of us…

  16. against says:

    Nobody is homophobic, god made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. And gay ppl don’t need extra rights they aren’t more special than everybody else. And “Common Sense” u a like the rest on here. U think its good 4children to that #*@t. Confusing kids u idiots.

    • Freedom says:

      So they should have the right to marry the person they love. The rest of us have that right because we were lucky enough to be born heterosexual.

      God made Adam and Eve if you are religious, and obviously The Christians see no problem with incest. Because more than 7 billion people originated from Adam and Eve. According to their religion. Brothers procreating with mothers and sisters. sisters procreating with brothers and fathers.

      And should we stone the cheaters on this island to death? That is what the bible says. So by that notion proves that even the 10 commandments have exceptions.

      Thou shalt not kill: unless they commited adultery, and then it is okay.

  17. 1minute says:

    Why shouldn’t a loving couple be able to get married?

  18. Someone says:

    two points to raise:
    1. If you dont like same sex marriage..dont marry the same sex
    2. If people complain about the lack of father figures in a childs life today..then whats better than two fathers!

  19. Kindley says:

    Government making sin legal does not make it right.

  20. EG says:

    I am a straight female Bermudian. I am an Atheist. I have no intention of having children. Yet I am allowed the right in my home to marry. I will marry under the understanding and blessing of no god yet there are is no outcry of moral implications every time an atheist couple marries. What are Christians views on the marriage of those who share different religions? What about the views that only a few decades years ago many thought that interracial marriage and procreation were incredibly “unnatural”? Why is it that on the basis of many arguments here pedophiliacs, adulterers, rapists, and incestial couples are allowed to get married simply because they contain opposite sex individuals? What about the union of couples who are physically unable to have children?

    Secularism is something that NEEDS to enter our house of parliament. Secularism is the belief of separation of state and religion. Bermuda is NOT a christian nation. Look at your neighbours, do ALL Bermudians follow a Christian belief? Secularism is both the freedom for and freedom from religion. If your religious views infringe the freedoms of others then you should not have the place in the governing of laws allowing you to impose those oppressive opinions on those who do not share your views. Secondly the principle of equality before the law seeks to remove all privilege or penalty for having or lacking faith so that no belief religious or otherwise receives special protection from criticism and that inequalities which some support in their religion wouldn’t be supported outside of it.

    Secularism, when understood properly, is an environment which protects all.

  21. Realist says:

    Marriage is between a man and a woman!

  22. Day says:

    i dont care how educated you think you are but you cant fool this black brother here. being gay is wrong and trying to make other people believe it is the right thing to do is even wronger. Think for yourself people. F#@k these so called politians they dont itmidate me..

  23. What about the rest of us? says:

    When God created Adam and Eve it was He who introduced the union of marriage between one man and one woman. So if two individuals don’t comply with the laws that God has given to us or don’t believe in Him then why get married? Many of those who read their Bible will know that God does not change and neither does His laws. In the book of Revelation it says that a time will come when a man and man as well as a woman and a woman will be granted licence to be married. This was the same as in Noah’s day when their was homosexual practices as well as the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, both of these places were soon destroyed because of the allowance of this practice. Bermuda needs to take note that as we continue to grow further away from God or our moral values we will witness more and more disturbances within our community. An example can be drawn from taking corporal punishment out of the schools and now we notice that students don’t listen to teachers and have less respect for elders and authority. As this new age of “Just doing me” has come about we see that so many things have just gone wrong and will forever too if individuals decide not to live by morals. As a 20 year old female I do find it correct to treat everyone with the same respect despite what they believe but only so much should be allowed to be practiced. If we allow homosexual marriage how long will it be until other things are allowed?

    • Sooooooo says:

      “If we allow homosexual marriage how long will it be until other things are allowed?”

      You mean … “Like Mixed Race Marrage?”

  24. Sorry Sir says:

    At one point Whites and Blacks couldn’t marry.

    How stupid does that sound now…

  25. Whistling Frog says:

    I think this topic is just like experimenting with drugs. Everyone has their preference of choice on how they choose to be happy by killing the pain. Overuse sometimes can lead to overdosing depending on the choice of drugs one uses. The bottom line is I think that gay marriage should be between a man and a woman but gay people got a right to be just as miserable as everybody else.
    So lets legalize the gay thing and drugs together and everyone can live happily ever after or kill themselves trying…

  26. the way i see it says:

    OBA,UBP,PLP,God,the bible. Since when is up to any of the above mentioned to decide what we do with our bodies, whom we fall in love with and how we live our lives?? I am as straight as one can be, but i will stand strong next to any of my gay friends and fight all this nonsense. we live and then we died. I say lets have fun and live our lives the way we want and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
    who is with me?

  27. Bermudian says:

    Its very sad that in this day and age a gay person cannot legally wed who they love. How would heterosexuals feel if a govt, church or organization stopped them from marrying their beloved? Everyone should be able to marry who they wish.

  28. Watchman says:

    I stand amazed as I witness the fight for rights of grown men to be able to push their body parts into other grown men. It is a strange thing to behold. I am a man who appreciates the beauty of his woman. To witness the hunger of another man wanting to leave the natural beauty of a woman, and follow after the hardness of another man. I can not move on to discuss the occurrence of gay women, since I am a man still trying to figure out the desire of a man for a man.

    As I watch these conversations unfold, I can’t help but conclude from all the ‘points of views discussed’, that demon influence is to blame.

    * What wakes a man in the morning and drives him to desire a man?
    * What makes a man want to try drugs (drugs kill)?
    * What makes a man desire to kill another man?
    * What makes a man want to kill himself?
    * What influences men to do the things they do?

    (For those who don’t know, God will never disagree with Himself. If a thing is wrong, it will always be wrong.)

    Demons (that’s right demons), are much to blame for the gay rights movement. Anything against God they push as an agenda. Demons, use people to push agendas. Which is why both gay, straight and otherwise will be recruited to influence the world against the things of God. Will be used to fight for immoral rights. People are being used(willing, unwilling or clueless)to push an agenda against God period. Believer, pray that all will be exposed in Jesus name.