“BIU Demonstrated Leadership By Example”

July 27, 2011

kim swan ubp bermudaUnited Bermuda Party leader Kim Swan has called on the One Bermuda Alliance to end its “bombardment” against the Bermuda Industrial Union saying, “Now is not the time to for a political party to wage war with the union.”

In an editorial published in the July 22, 2011 edition of The Worker’s Voice, the former Opposition Leader praises the BIU for demonstrating, “leadership by example,” and calls on the OBA to focus on offering solutions to rebuilding the economy, rather than criticizing Bermuda’s largest trade union.

In his editorial, Mr. Swan praises the BIU for partnering with employers during the recession to preserve jobs specifically citing the agreement with the Hotel Employers of Bermuda to freeze wages that he argues, “…saved hundreds of jobs in our important tourism industry.”

The UBP Leader went on to say, “I note the continuous bombardment against the BIU by the Chairman of the OBA without recognition of the significant agreement recently brokered by the same union…Hopefully the concerns are being addressed and his attention will be redirected towards solutions to help business thrive…”

Read More About

Category: All, News, Politics

Comments (69)

Trackback URL | Comments RSS Feed

  1. welldone says:

    Good statement Mr. Swan.

    • Enforcer says:

      He is right. Look at what happened when UBP bombarded us with the housing Corp. Scandal. The electorate got tired of hearing the same old thing and nothing happened to Ewart and his minions. OBA is proving to be the same old same old. Why don’t the members stand up for themselves. They won’t and they won’t vote OBA either!

  2. Hmmm says:

    So when is he moving over to the PLP?

    • Ambassador .. says:

      Right after the election, he’s got to get paid you know, plp here he comes…

    • PEPPER says:

      Why would the likes of the P.L.P. want anything to do with Kim Swan ? and why did the P.L.P. want to embrace Wayne Furbert ? and else for Jamahl Simmons…How can these men live with their selves oh I forgot Maxwell Burgess,they are all up for sale … LOOSERS all of them.

  3. Come on Kim…OBA is asking the union to be accountable and forthcoming with their financial statements,at the request of union members who are concerned about whether or not their dues are being properly handled. Hardly a “bombardment”. I’ve loved and admired you for years. Please don’t start sliding into that old “PLP” style of covering up wrongdoing and letting it slide because of the friends/relatives package of success….

  4. Chart says:

    LOL! Politics makes strange bedfellows.

  5. Tired of nonsense says:

    How disgusting that a political party highlights transgressions of the law by an organization which professes to be all about worker’s rights. The OBA should be ashamed of themselves for noting the violation of a legislated requirement for over a decade and counting. Don’t these idiots know that the BIU/PLP are above the law? Remember this is the New Bermuda OBA. Now shut up and agree with everything that the BIU/PLP does and say. I mean apparently that is the function of the Opposition within democracies.

    Nothing but pure haterism IMO.

  6. Terry says:

    @Hmmmm ….took de vurds right out of my mouwf.

    Can’t beat em….cross the floor. Old Mother Coxy will take care of you…..

    L. Furbert gets exclusive interview with leader of the other opposition……damn…how many they got before they call this election….nail-coffin-hammer……..

    Just look across the harbor, and see a multi colored “SALE”…………………..

  7. sandgrownan says:

    Unreal. What a turd.

    • Terry says:

      It’s callws money…Sandy…..Free meal ticket…….screw the white bouy again………oh well…..can’t play golf when your unemplyed………

  8. Rockfish#1 says:

    Kim,
    You’ve worked to earn the respect of most Bermudians, even though they didn’t necessarily agree with your views.
    It seems strange to see you engage in the same behaviour that you opposed when you had a party to lead. What a pity!

  9. Takbir Sharrieff says:

    Mr.Swan I respect your integrity and sticking by your Principles.!I respect your consistent position of standing up for self ….the Public and what is right and prudent….I respect your standing up for…good word…Do not let less principled people badger you into doing something out of your character or better judgement even if you have to be a party of one……one man in his right character and wisdom standing on principle is worth more than a whole nation of charlatans…..History has proven that countless times….do not throw away your legacy …for a mess of pottage…!Proud to be a Bermudian because of people like you.!

    • smith says:

      Sorry Takbir,Kim is way off base with his comments. The OBA unfortunately is doing the job that the current government should be doing and that is to DEMAND that the BIU operate in an arena of Transparency. The fact that they are in many ways one-in-same, only highlights the need for a separation of power and check and balances. Lets place this into perspective(PLP since assuming control):
      1.Past President of the BIU and elected PLP member — ‘back bencher’—Ottie Simmons
      2.Past President of the BIU and current Minister of W&E etc etc—Derek Burgess
      3.President of the BIU–and PLP candidate in several elections/primaries–Butch Furbert
      4.Senior member of the BIU–and PLP candidate in several elections– George Scott
      5.BIU staff member–and PLP Senator–LaVerne Furbert
      Need I say more??

      • Pastor Syl says:

        @ Takbir:

        The OBA is doing the job the UBP should have been doing, behaving like an Opposition party and asking the hard questions, the ones that have the potential to lose you votes. I am sorry Mr. Swan, but I can’t help viewing your comments as a ploy to look more attractive as a candidate in the next election.

        • Terry says:

          Bless you Pastor…..Three hail Paula’s……..

      • PEPPER says:

        Smith , you sure hit the nail with hammer..the B.I.U.run this isle of devils…

      • LaVerne Furbert says:

        Smith,

        The first name on your list should have been Dr. E. F. Gordon, not Ottie Simmons. Dr. Gordon, who also a Member of Parliament, was first the President of the Bermuda Workers Association, the forerunner to the Bermuda Industrial Union.

        Pastor Syl,

        Come on, everybody knows the OBA is the UBP. Why couldn’t those same members ask hard questions when they were members of the UBP? A rose by any other name is still a rose.

        • Observer says:

          Come on LaVerne. Give us the truth. Why can’t the BIU follow the law and provide the workers with financial accountability?

        • sandgrownan says:

          Is it written with words of more than one syllable?

        • sandgrownan says:

          oopss…what I meant to say was…

          Come on, everyone knows the PLP have failed

        • James says:

          And a dysfunctional and leaderless union by any other name is still a dysfunctional and leaderless union!!

        • Pastor Syl says:

          @ Laverne:
          I guess for the same reason members of the PLP vote for issues they know are wrong and they don’t agree with, just so they can preserve their place in Government and don’t lose their chance at being selected as a candidate in the next election.
          Or maybe within the OBA, they are more in a position, or more free to speak their minds instead of being under a Party whip, or under someone who appears to be afraid to speak up and speak out.
          Mr. Swan, you appear to be about appeasement. That, for me, and many others is why the UBP was such an ineffectual Opposition.

    • Common Sense says:

      I normally agree with just about everything Takbir says but on this occasion I have to respectfully disagree. I’ve not heard Mr. Fahy knock the BIU for any reason other than their failure to comply with the law of the land and submit their audited annual financial statements by June each year. It is a clear legal requirement under the Trade Union Act and any and all officers of the Union are guilty of a continuing offence if they fail to comply with the Act. It would be interesting to ascertain if the ABUT and the BPSU have also failed to submit their annual financial statement for the past 12 years, or if they are complying with their legal requirements. I can understand maybe falling a year or so behind, but 12 years is ridiculous and needs to be dealt with. It is the Registrar General who is responsible for enforcement of the Act, and our new Premier should be jumping up and down demanding that the BIU simply comply with the law. In 2011 we need transparency at all levels of Government, and having both present and previous senior Government Ministers so closely connected with the BIU one has to wonder why this illegal state of affairs has been allowed to continue. Even Kim Swan says, ” I do not condone the actions of the union with regards to it statutory obligations and I continue to encourage them to correct these matters.” If the ABUT and the BPSU can do it then what excuse could the BIU possibly have for continually breaking the law? Come on BIU – you need to come to the wicket!

  10. Shaking the Head says:

    The leader of the UBP comes out to condone illegal behavior. So he is agreeing that the BIU is above the law. What next? Would he agree that it is now acceptable for BIU members to stop paying payroll tax or hospital levy? What about non BIU members – can we ignore any law we don’t want to comply with? This is a very slippery path which will only encourage more people ignoring laws, and he should be ashamed of such a statement.

    • Terry says:

      You keep shakin your head. Go on…do it. Were screwed and the people that used the condoms are viral free……………………..

      AA announces the departure of Flight ………………………………….

  11. Kim Swan says:

    The BIU have recieved little credit for being ahead of the curve when they encouraged the workers that they represent to take a wage freeze more than 2 years ago.

    That was a responsible action by the BIU that assisted many private business owners outside of the government realm as well who were coming to terms with an economy gone wrong.

    The Biu did what Government would not and they did so in the best interest of their workers and the Employer.

    It is interesting to read some of the comments under pen names on this and other threads, some constructive and some deliberately vile and venomous.

    The article is available in the workers voice – I do not condone the actions of the union with regards to it statutory obligations and I continue to encourage them to correct these matters – but I question the motive of a political party of repeatedly publicly attacking the union.

    For the record, the collective bargaining efforts of the UNIONS in Bermuda has helped many non union workers in this country.

    Like Quinton Edness and other socially minded politicians you can be UBP and appreciate the work of the UNION – in this case the BIU.

    And for those questioning why it was covered in the workers voice – these same comments were made on the floor of the House of Assembly in the presence of reporters but not covered by the daily paper.

    Respectfully,

    Kim Swan
    ELECTED United Bermuda Party in 2007

    • Watching! says:

      So are you crossing the floor? What is your thinking? Share it with us please! You have a lot of support but the end of the UBP is near. Surely you are staying in politics.

    • James says:

      Credit for playing ball with the PLP, really, what a surprise. Seriously, what did you expect, they are one in the same. Shocking Kim, simply shocking.

    • Scott P says:

      Kim,

      You’re dead wrong with this one. The BIU has to submit financial statements like every other union in Bermuda and they are obligated to do this legally and to protect their investment in the relationship with their members. Pointing out that they haven’t done so in years is something every political party should be doing and we all should hold the BIU to their obligations. To say that we should not point this out because they work for the people is ridiculous. I have a lot of respect for what you’ve done over your career but this comes across as a ploy to get on the PLP’s good side. Don’t stoop to that level. They are an irresponsible group too. Just look at the state of our economy and the unelected people we have running our Ministries.

      Do better.
      Scott

  12. Dem byes says:

    Ironically the OBA members, especially ET Richards stated they would move out of Bermuda if the PLP won in 1998. They are still here, have gained contacts thru the PLP government and now slamming the government overspending, now even richer than before.

    Michael Fahy, keep criticizing and trashing the Union, the Black voters you all hired all the consultants all over the world to woo over to the your sides and told the ignorant UBP Barritts and Gibbons that you and Dunkley would get the blacks and mix breeds are not buying your power hungry empty statements

    keep up the good work Michael both fahy and dunkley and see where it gets you all, naught for naught.

  13. Blinders OFF says:

    Stupid people, when the union negotiates for their members, does it not trickle down to the white colour workers?

    I read the article and all it said was that Mr. Swan thought the union was just a pro active as your Mr. Richards in predicting the down turn in the world wide economy and instead of seeing its members out of work, offered a compromise.

    The union and the PLP does not hide their connections? What is your point? Tell you what the OBA and no Union will ever have any kind of relationship because all the OBA cares about is the bottom line and not people.

    Mr. Fahy it show what we have been witnessing, OBA is never going to put Bermuda 1st. Only $$$$ first.

  14. Just an idea says:

    Come on man pick a side and move on

  15. Just an idea says:

    And since when was there a right time to do anything in politics??. please get real…..

  16. Just an idea says:

    A better cause would be to amend the human rights act that the people of Bermuda and the world are waiting for .???? Hello

  17. Just an idea says:

    The riight time for that was years ago!!

  18. Just an idea says:

    Has it got to the stage in Bermuda where politicians are just bitching back and forward to each other and nobody else cares or is even
    listening?

  19. Rockfish#2 says:

    Kim,
    Did you publicly comment when the BIU accepted the pay freeze “more than 2 years ago? If so,when and where? If not, why are you doing in now?

  20. Hubert says:

    Kim has realised what most of us already do; that UBP + (new)BDA + (new)OBA = (Old)UBP. Political Scrabble at work! Kim has been rock solid! Do you realise that some of his former Party Members have been in 3 parties in 21 months! Kim may be a lot of things, but he is not politically schizophrenic!

  21. Blinders OFF says:

    Just and Idea – A side picked him when he had several sponsors to sponsor him to go on the Seniors PGA Tour, but placed Bermuda 1st and ran for the UBP with the UBP liars.

    why is it you all, yes you all, OBA/UBP always discredit a UBP MP when he does not toot your horn. And you can be selective – Donte Pettingill Crockwell et al turncoats, including the 7 jumpers, but you single out the one person the UBP had that’s an honest broker.

    Keep on slamming – it just opening the eyes more of the sensible voter.

  22. Blinders OFF says:

    and Kim whatever you do, please, please don’t join the “snakes” as your own wife calls them!

  23. Just an idea says:

    The more opposition folks that join the PLP sounds like in time they also will become like the old UBP who would have thought

  24. Mr Swan, you are correct in this case. – “I do not condone the actions of the union with regards to it statutory obligations and I continue to encourage them to correct these matters – but I question the motive of a political party of repeatedly publicly attacking the union”.

    I wonder if members of the Union actually did approach him, or is this personal cry for the UBP/OBA to say they will leave no stone uncovered if it means tearing down the Union. I cannot recall a time in Bermuda history when the UBP ever cared about the workers’ rights. I question if they really do now? There is no record of it, this makes this seem like he has a hidden agenda here. Guess it is a rush for votes. What a laugh.

    This matter is not something Fahy will win; it is for proper authorities to handle and the members to deal with. Members go to the Union for everything else, and they should take their concerns there now? How in the world can Fahy help them, except advertise and make news announcements to tell persons what they already know?? Fahy does not represent the working men, and never has. His ploy is to print the BIU records to accomplish what? To say they have mis-managed funds to prove, what is already proven? Where is this going? Likely nowhere, as it will not be resolved by Fahy. He will not come out as the hero. Somehow he is looking for a great personal accomplishment to bath in the fault of the BIU. Really? This tells me that the UBP/OBA is not no different.

    The Union has a responsiablity to its members, to do what should be done. But, this issues should not be an election ploy for the UBP/OBA.

    • Shaking the Head says:

      You seem very confused. First you praise Kim Swan, who is the leader of the UBP, a party that still exists. You then question the motives of the UBP/OBA then cannot remember when the UBP has ever cared for the worker. This is the main thrust of Kim Swan’s editorial so make up your mnind.
      You then state that the reason to print the BIU accounts is to prove funds have been mismanaged? Where does Mr. Fahy ever say that, or critize the BIU as alleged by Kim Swan? The OBA is no more UBP than the PLP who has welcomed ex UBP elected members. Going further and using your logic, the PLP shouldn’t care about business as they are the peoples’ party. Regrettably this is true and shown by their lack of business acumen in handling the economy.
      Unfortunately you seem to be reflective of a died in the wool supporter of a particular party and unable to understand that there can be, and should be, a change in the political landscape.

      • Hey Shaking your head,

        I am not confused, and I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. If a MP or anyone does something that I deem as being of great significance, I will award praise or support the idea. It does not matter which political party they represent. That is political maturity. But, I also stand by my own positions on issues. A member or MP of any political party can also differ in their views from other members of their political party, and this is okay, as persons will seldom agree on the same issues.

        So yes I do agree with Mr Swan on his position in regards to this issue. However, since I do not really see any different between the UBP/OBA accept a name change, I will refer to both as such. I believe that the UBP and OBP have the same political ideology and philosophy. In regards to Mr Fahy he does not have to say anything about printing of the BIU accounts, his actions speak for its self. Why would one do that, what is his motive? Particularly, when this is not new information, and was not something that he discovered.

        PLP and UBP have both had members join from either party. But this is not the same as UBP/OBA situation of attempting to create a new party. It is far from the same type of issue. The PLP have had a history of working with labour, if you go back and read the history of unions and labour, PLP was founded on such. But, UBP/OBA was not founded on the same, and as a result when Mr Fahy attempts to take such an interest in BIU, any knowledgeable person would wonder what his objective is and motive?

        Persons can support any political party of their choice, and they have a voice, just as you do.

  25. Takbir Sharrieff says:

    Kim ….do not let anyone throw you under the bus……Be your own Man.!Stand on your own Principle…..nuff Respect……..you are envied.!We need more like you……Proud to be a Bermudian……!

  26. LaVerne Furbert says:

    I suggest you all get a copy of the latest issue of the Workers Voice. You’ll find reading it interesting. The Workers Voice is available at BIU Headquarters.

    • sandgrownan says:

      Why? Does it explain where the workers money went? Or does it explain why no audited accounts?

      or is it just more pseudo left wing bollocks?

      • LaVerne Furbert says:

        By your premise, those years when there were no audited accounts under the UBP, the money went somewhere where it shouldn’t have gone.

        Obveiously you haven’t read the Workers Voice at all. It’s not been left wing, just honest. But maybe you think honesty is left=wing.

        • sandgrownan says:

          answer the question.

          • Hudson says:

            She can’t – hence the smoke. And Laverne – which years are you referring to?

        • Shaking the Head says:

          Just honest? VSB tonight carries the story (probably untrue) that a LaVerne Furbert admits the Workers Voice carried an inaccurate story relating to the gambling ship. How convenient. Print, get caught out, then retract. What’s new and different to the mass media?

    • Black Soil says:

      I used to enjoy reading the Workers Voice at the Crawl Hill gas station. Why can’t I find it there any more?

      • mildred says:

        I find that when cut to shape it makes perfect bird cage liner.
        Alvin’s column always goes face up !

        • Blinders OFF says:

          now if we said that of other periodicals, they would say we are using the race card.

          Bermuda take heed, this OBA is a vicious circle – now they are trying to get votes by have a camp at cup match – I can recall when they paid for county camps and didn’t show up and wanting to sanction Maxwell Burgess – how life changes eh?

          • mildred says:

            I say the same thing about the National Enquirer too .. equal opportunity racism ? ?

  27. joe says:

    This is electioneering at its lowest.
    Swan failed as a leader; I don’t credit him now.
    Why do you all waste your time on this?

    • Blinders OFF says:

      Swan was elected as leader of the UBP twice – how did he fail? Because he would not violate the constitution that they all signed. History will call him a man of integrity, what will they say of John and the other byes?

  28. Accountability says:

    Personally, my favourite example of BIU’s leadership is when it demonstrated to our kids that honesty and integrity is not part of the Island’s culture. Does anyone recall the leadership they showed in demanding the rehire of a dishonest driver who found a way to work a second job while off on medical leave, and had the gall to falsify records. Or how about the job given back to the drunken ferry pilot at the behest of sterling BIU leadership? Senator, care to explain to our children how this kind of leadership models integrity and accountability to our children? Care to explain why BIU speaks, and Government CAVES? Do examples of BIU’s leadership make us all ‘Proud to be Bermudian?’

  29. Hey Shaking your head,

    I am not confused, and I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. If a MP or anyone does something that I deem as being of great significance, I will award praise or support the idea. It does not matter which political party they represent. That is political maturity. But, I also stand by my own positions on issues. A member or MP of any political party can also differ in their views from other members of their political party, and this is okay, as persons will seldom agree on the same issues.

    So yes I do agree with Mr Swan on his position in regards to this issue. However, since I do not really see any different between the UBP/OBA accept a name change, I will refer to both as such. I believe that the UBP and OBP have the same political ideology and philosophy. In regards to Mr Fahy he does not have to say anything about printing of the BIU accounts, his actions speak for its self. Why would one do that, what is his motive? Particularly, when this is not new information, and was not something that he discovered.

    PLP and UBP have both had members join from either party. But this is not the same as UBP/OBA situation of attempting to create a new party. It is far from the same type of issue. The PLP have had a history of working with labour, if you go back and read the history of unions and labour, PLP was founded on such. But, UBP/OBA was not founded on the same, and as a result when Mr Fahy attempts to take such an interest in BIU, any knowledgeable person would wonder what his objective is and motive?

    Persons can support any political party of their choice, and they have a voice, just as you do.

    Reply

  30. Common Sense says:

    As an official of the BIU can Senator Laverne Furbert please explain publicly why the BIU continues to break the law by failing to submit its annual audited statements to the Registrar General before 1st June each year as required under section 18 of the Trade Union Act. If anyone wants to read the relevant section of the Trade Union Act is can easily be found on the internet under Bermuda Laws Online published by the Government.

    Anyone taking the time to read section 18 should also note that under subsection (4), and I quote, “Every officer of a trade union which fails to comply with this section commits an offence.”

    Perhaps Senator Furbert can also let the public know if she is an officer of the BIU and if so, it would appear that she is committing an offence under the Act which would be of concern to the general public if she is sitting in the Senate while continually breaking the law. Hopefully, that is not the case.

    The Trade Union Act applies to all registered trade unions in Bermuda, including the ABUT and the BPSU. The requirement to publish audited annual financial statements is there to protect union members from misappropriation of their hard earned dues. We need to know if our two other major unions are complying with the Act and submitting their audited financial statements as required. If so, then there is absolutely no legitimate reason for the BIU to be the only union not to do so. This whole issue would quickly disappear if the BIU would do the right thing and comply with the law of the land. Is that too much to ask?

  31. RobbieM says:

    It seems a coincidence that at about the same time the PLP Government forgave the Berkeley bond, the BIU agreed to freeze wages in the hotels. Also, I wonder how Kim Swan can still believe that our tourism industry is important when it only contributes approximately 5% to Bermuda’s GDP. Our politicians are living in another world from reality!

  32. pipsqueak says:

    Don’t you know, that there’s more ‘Hypocrisy’ in these 21 square miles than
    anywhere else on planet earth!
    Have a ‘Bermudaful’ day!

  33. Kim Swan says:

    @ Rockfish #2,
    Thanks for asking and inviting a response : ) The comments about the BIU echo what I have said several times in the past couple of years. Here is one example covered by the Royal Gazette on September 6th 2010 at Labour Day.

    ” Today marked the 29th Labour Day march and hundreds of people gathered at Union Square, Hamilton, to participate in the annual parade.

    Short political speeches were the order of the day with Bermuda’s three political leaders keeping their addresses under five minutes……………………

    ” Opposition UBP Leader Kim Swan said he was impressed that the hotel division of the Bermuda Industrial Union (BIU) and Hotel Employers of Bermuda had agreed to a wage freeze in return for waiving payroll tax in order to keep costs down and people employed.

    “Earlier this year BIU President Chris Furbert announced that hotel employers and hotel workers agreed to accept a wage freeze — a major announcement that demonstrated good faith. Clearly it was an act of hotel employers, employees and the union working together and acting responsibly during tough times.

    “An act that builds a trust bond between the employer, employee and their union; and more importantly preserved jobs during uncertain times. In my estimation this announcement by BIU President Chris Furbert and the Hotel Employers was huge! A major announcement that demonstrated Leadership and good faith.”

    Respectfully,
    Kim Swan MP
    Georges West – Home of the Cup Match Champions 2011

  34. Kim Swan says:

    @ RobbieM,
    I still believe in Tourism as it remains important to Bermuda. One reason is because the tourism infrastructure compliments international business, their efforts and clients. Although tourism currently contributes far less in foreign currency, our challenge is to now reverse the reliance with have on cruise visitors (whilst important, as they provide a 5th of the spending of a visitor staying in a hotel or guest house) and rebuild our on island experience.

    Happy to discuss the issue – give me a call

    Kim
    333-8321

  35. Common Sense says:

    I fully agree with Kim Swan that the BIU demonstrated their concern for our economy when its leadership agreed on a wage freeze in the hotel industry. That showed true leadership. Contrary to some, I also believe that the BIU is an essential organization that has done, and will need to continue to do the best job possible for our workers. For this reason it is also essential that they operate with transparency and in order to do this their leadership needs to get their accounts in order and submit their annual audited statements to the Registrar as required by law. I don’t really care if they don’t have their accounts published in the newspapers, but they should be produced for the Registrar so that he or she can ensure they are keeping proper accounts, and they should also be available to the membership who are required to make contributions every week. This issue will disappear once the BIU complies with the Trade Union Act.

  36. redman says:

    Hmm Mr. Swan must be getting ready to cross the floor, Yawn!! I don’t recall the BIU President offering to take a pay cut at anytime before during nor after the membership took their pay cut (I stand to be corrected)!! The question should be “Why hasn’t the PLP Govt. not spoken out about the BIU’s poor and lack of financial reporting of the Memberships money”.

    If the PLP where really concerned about the BIU’s Membership they would have cracked the whip long ago. Just like the then Finance Minister & now Premiere (Mrs. Cox) did when admonishing the respective Charities that had failed to report on time a few years back.

    Mr. Swan you should be ashamed of yourself!! And If the Premiere and the PLP MP’s had any decency so would they!!