Column: “Should Be Given The Right To Marry”
[Opinion column written by Eron Hill]
In recent months the issue of same sex marriage has been a topic that has caused a great deal of debate in our island home. While I personally believe in the union between a man and a woman, I don’t support discrimination in any shape, form, or fashion.
We are all human and equal on this basis, therefore not one of us is perfect and none of us should be discriminated against based on how we live our lives, so long as we do not impose on the liberties of others. A person’s sexual orientation should not exclude them from being treated fairly and because of that I believe that same sex couples should be given the right to marry in Bermuda.
I was a raised in a Christian home, attended a Christian school during my middle and high school years; and to this day I maintain my Christian faith. As a result, I am well aware that there are those who oppose same sex marriage on the basis that ‘scripture says it is wrong’.
Even if one accepts that it does [not all Christians agree on this], scripture also says that other things are wrong. For instance, it says we shouldn’t wear mixed linens; men shouldn’t be in the same house as their wives when they’re menstruating; and that we shouldn’t sow your field with two kinds of seed. Do we all live by this?
We see this in Leviticus 19:19: You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.
The Bible also implores Christians to avoid judging others, as it is not in the authority of any man to judge another for how they live. “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”- James 4:12
It’s my humble belief that as Christians we should live our faith and not attempt to legislate it. We can believe in something without imposing that belief on others; one cannot inspire those who they insult. Giving individuals the right of same sex marriage takes absolutely none away from those who don’t support or practice it.
Bermuda is a small island; many of her inhabitants practice different faiths and lifestyles. Issues like this can cause a great deal of polarization but I believe that it is important to respect our differences whether or not we can understand them. We need compassion and an understanding that we are all equal.
The issue of same sex marriage manifests in many different ways and affects Bermuda’s younger generation to a great extent. Young people are just as divided on the issue as others. There are some young people who are vehemently opposed to allowing same sex marriage, they mirror the perspective that marriage should follow a heteronormative convention.
At the same time there are young people who keep their homosexuality hidden because of the overriding popularity of that belief. Whether or not a person agrees with the lifestyle is irrelevant to some of our young people who feel they have no choice about their sexuality.
Individuals have chosen to sign petitions supporting both sides and I respect that; it is their unalienable right do so. Having said that, I call upon politicians on both sides of the floor, in both the upper and lower house to take into consideration both petitions, to consult their constituents and then take the matter to parliament to be debated and voted on; alternatively there is the option of a referendum.
However, taking no action and refraining from making a decision on the matter is far from leadership on both sides. To flirt with the idea of changing the legislation when election time comes is not only dubiously opportunistic; without action it’s dishonest! There is no better time than the present, and Bermudians deserve to know where their legislative representatives stand on the matter.
Please don’t allow yourself to be beholden to your party line; show the Bermudian public that you can maintain your independence of both mind and deed. There will be some pleased with the decision, and some not so pleased; but whatever the result we all have to respect that democracy has taken its course.
“There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must take it because his conscience tells him it is right” –Martin Luther King Jr.
- Eron Hill
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Eron – this is probably the best opinion piece you have done.
Stay out of politics and focus on ethics and day to day issues without the slant of a political party and I will read your pieces with interest
It is critical to use scripture in CONTEXT, Leviticus was under Old Testament Laws and regulations which were given to the Israelites and the Levite priests. To recognize and address unnatural human affections (which is also in the Bible) is not being judgemental, its just an observation of an unnatural act that is not excepted in our culture, something our parents, grand parents and great grandparents found Taboo morally, which we now the generation of anything goes have adopted the alternative lifestyle syndrome to be politically correct.
Funny how the ones that ridiculed you for your support of the opposition are now singing Hosanna for supporting their cause, until you say something political again that they don’t like and then they will crucify you again.
SMFH
Your last part is so true.
Actually the WHOLE statement is TRUE, but it’s just like reading the Bible, we endorse what makes us comfortable.
The first part was just gibberish in the form of a small amount of historical knowledge, with no explanation or context at all. Levite priets? Whatever….don’t care who they were or who gave them what. You are the biblical equivalent of Paula Cox and her long winded platitudes.
The only person who is going to get crucified is Eron. By the likes of you.
well gee whizz – welcome to the internet where people sometimes agree and disagree with other peoples opinions and political views
SMFH
Why do you keep pushing this “it’s unnatural” argument?
You’ve been show to be wrong, time and again. Just saying the same lie over and over doesn’t make it true.
It is not natural because, if everyone chose to be gay, the human existence would be over in 100 years, unless unnatural methods were used to procreate.
Uh huh. And what does that have to do with anything?
No one is advocating or suggesting that everyone turns gay. That’s not even a point in the conversation.
Procreation isn’t a necessity for marriage.
But people ARE gay. Why shouldn’t they be afforded the same rights as the rest of us?
@Onion Juice
How is that you think that people who use the bible to oppose same-sex marriage, are not being judgmental?
Your thinking on this is muddled……but then again, trying to use the bible as a tool to oppose same-sex marriage (something that it does not directly address) tends to muddy the waters don’t you think?
Also, would you call the desire for a man to have multiple wives an “unnatural affection”? I’m sure you realize that this was a common feature of ancient religious (including christian) cultures and is not condemned by so called biblical “scripture”.
If you ask me, ancient cultures were far more “anything goes” than we see in modern societies.
Just my observations!
I agree with you “onion juice” also in context of genesis 6:4, there were giants in the earth in those days and also after the flood when the sons of god came into the daughters of man and they bare children , the same became mighty men which were of old AND renown. The seed of those children are still in the earth today ,just because we accept that all people are human doesn’t mean they are!! There are “giants”(Neanderthal) that are not human and their seed is mixed with the serpent seed.. We are of clay and they are of iron, the ones that left their heavenly estate to come into the daughters of men have now produced offspring that have become our captors, (in so many ways). Iron sharpens iron but does not mix with clay.. So Mr. Hill may want to not just read the bible but study.. We cannot tell our creator about His creation..(Daniel 2:43-47) The seed of iron are able to do things that people of clay aren’t allowed to do.The two do not mix.And we are at the time of iron and clay. Those of the earth and those above the earth.
What a load of malarkey. Giants? Clay? LOL This is what you base your hatred on? Wow. Just wow.
Wow Eron…you are my new hero. Fight for people’s right’s not for political agendas and God will continue to steer you in the right direction.
Well said. Well written. High marks on this one.
Much better when your stuff isn’t politicized, good piece!…stay out of politics, you have a better chance of making it!
Hehe…. What you really mean is … Stay away from politics under the PLP . However welcome to the other party .
well gee whizz – welcome to the internet where people sometimes agree and disagree with other peoples opinions and political views
SMFH
No that’s not what I mean. He’d be better off staying out of the PLP AND the OBA. What YOU really mean is you have no brains!
Need I mention that you’ve never told any young dynamic UBP/BDA/OBA person to stay away from politics …. Oh wait there isn’t any !
Please don’t quote the Bible…its an unreliable resource, cannot be backed up or substantiated, and the KJV is a collection of folklore stories and Hebrew law that was ‘compiled’ by a Homosexual King named James
No need to disrespect people’s beliefs. It just gives them an excuse to change the conversation by playing the victim.
This is actually quite silly. He’s making a point in quoting the Bible. Many people use scripture to support their position. He in turn uses scripture to say (1) there are tons of things we should do that don’t and (2) that scripture says not to judge others.
He’s not using scripture to bolster his position – he relies on general principles of fairness and non-discrimination for that. He is just using scripture to show preempt such arguments.
At least he didn’t say Two Corinthians like Trump.
LMFAO
Swing voter you might be getting a little dizzy, where is your proof that King James was homosexual, that is inconclusive, further King James AUTHORIZED the King James Version of the Bible for the Children of Israel (referred to in Deuteronomy 26 and Psalm 83) so that we might know our history since so many books are written and the renaissance obscured our pictures(job 9:24-35)We must consider, ‘why would people go to such lengths to hide other peoples history? King James Commissioned for it to be written, it was called “Holy” because that means put aside; the words of the books were sealed until the time of the end because although we read the Bible years ago it did not resonate because the words were sealed, the seals have been broken and knowledge has been released(Daniel 12:7-13)An opportunity for people to turn from their ways of thinking, and leaning upon their own understanding and seek The Most High (Amos 5:8)..THERE IS A CREATOR of all gods who also created all everything!
Very well said! Thank you.
As a Muslim I have a right too.As a Christian he has his right too.As a Buddhist they have their rights too.G-d,s law over-rides all rights.Homosexuality is against G-d,s law in all religion.Weak so-called christians,weak so-called muslims-weak so-called buddhists or others of any belief in G-D anywhere are bound for hell.The Holy Quran says talking about dis-believers and their followers ,it matters not if you warn them or warn them not they are fuel for the fire.I will never support ,or condone homosexuality or same sex marriage.I have a human righttoo and G-d Given right to discriminate too based on my faith in G-D and it will be protected too by The Creator of The Heavens and The Earth Allah subhana-wa-ta-Allah.Peace.
Takbir, I usually have great respect for your opinions and respect for the fact that you are a practicing Muslim, but on this issue, with respect, you are wrong. What do I mean by wrong? You say that you have a God given right to discriminate (against homosexuality or same sex marriage) but you, like all of us, are bound by the law of the land. It is not an offence in any way shape or form to be a homosexual, and the law is even more specific in prohibiting discrimination against our fellow human beings based on their sexual orientation. What you perceive to be your God given right to discriminate is not a right in law. I urge you to respect the rights of all human beings, especially those amongst persons who are law abiding citizens.
I personally disagree with adultery, which is absolutely forbidden in the bible, and in the Holy Koran to the best of my knowledge, but it is not against the law, and neither you nor anyone else should claim a God given right to discriminate against an adulterer. Please remember the old adage “He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones”!
Congratulations to Eron Hill for his excellent article on a difficult subject. He speaks with great wisdom.
Some of the attributes of wisdom are, “Capacity of judging rightly in matters relating to life and conduct”, “Soundness of judgement in the choice of means and end”
Mmm, would be interesting to preach this to our Middle School Students.
Hopefully, our Middle School Students are reading what Eron Hill has to say on this subject and will benefit from his wisdom and his capacity to judge rightly in matters relating to life and conduct.
@ Common Sense, no where did Takbir say that he discriminates against the homosexual. He said “I will never support ,or condone homosexuality or same sex marriage.I have a human right too and G-d Given right to discriminate too based on my faith in G-D…”. Based on my reading, he is discriminating against the act, not the person.
Are you serious “Straight up”? Takbir made the following statement, “I have a human right too and G-d Given right to discriminate too based on my faith in G-D.” He is not beating about the bush. He is claiming that he has the right to DISCRIMINATE – plain and simple. He is saying very clearly that he has a right to discriminate against homosexuals. He does not have that right. Homosexuality is not a crime of any kind in Bermuda (neither, of course, is adultery). Yes, he has the right not to invite anyone he considers to be a homosexual or a same same couple, or an adulterer into his home, but he has no right to discriminate against anyone because of their sexual orientation as defined under our Human Rights Act.
Have some “common sense” every one has the right to discriminate, it is to discern to make a distinction of one thing from another. Also, all will be judged and those who are the judges can judge and are supposed to judge! The only time one cannot judge is if they are doing the same act they are judging against.(Isiah 58)
Nobody is really bound by the law of the land, as sheep to governments we have followed it.
Eron, please can you respond to Takbir Karriem Sharrieff
C’mon Sharrieff, you cannot apply the levitical law to modern society. neither can you apply sha’ria law. Talk about forcing a pre-historic square peg in a 21C round hole!
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/graphics/graphic-anatomy-of-a-stoning
“Weak so-called christians,weak so-called muslims-weak so-called buddhists or others of any belief in G-D anywhere are bound for hell.”
Weak humans, like those who believe in fairy tales, and use them to justify their hatred, deserve to burn in hell.
As a Christian, the Bible tells Muslims that you are going to hell. Should I over look that part of the Bible for your sake?
Takbir, out of interest, why are you afraid of writing the word god? What difference would it mean if you put the ‘o’ in the middle?
Wow. Well said Eron
I am not in favour of same-sex marriage. However, this is a good written article. I don’t have time right now to counter-argue all of your points so I’ll just quickly mention a few things.
You invoke your christian beliefs at the beginning of your piece, followed by Bible versus to make a point. You say, ‘scripture says it is wrong…’Even if one accepts that it does [not all Christians agree on this], scripture also says that other things are wrong.’
You also mentioned Bible verse “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”- James 4:12
Are you a Bible scholar? Have you really studied scripture to find out the basis of what it means? It is dangerous to use scripture out of context and misleading people.
For one, let’s look at James 4:12 “There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”
There is only one lawgiver and judge.
Here, the stress is on ONE which appears first in the sentence: One is Lawgiver and Judge. Having established the single authority of God as Lawgiver and Judge, how can you step in the place of God Himself and change the law of marriage he has given. If you want to mention this scripture then it can be argued on this issue, based on your writing, you are manipulating the holy text, and setting yourself about the law and the lawgiver, God himself.
The One who is able – This phrase stresses the solitary uniqueness of God. He alone has power “to save and to destroy.” The one who would be lawgiver and judge must also be the one who has power over life and death, heaven and hell (cf. Matt. 10:28; Rev. 1:18). As a lawyer, you work in a system that ‘judges’ all the time. You judge according to the law. However, it is clear that only God has the power to decides one’s fate over life and death, heaven and hell.
James turns back to the brethren with a rebuking question: “Who are you who judge your neighbor?” It is indeed the height of arrogance and pride to try to take upon ourselves the role that God has reserved exclusively for Himself. This is in terms of condemnation. We cannot condemn anybody.
However, these commands do not negate the instructions to believers to exercise biblical judgment (1 Cor. 2:14-16):
We are to judge sin among believers (cf. Matt. 18:15-20; 1 Cor. 5:3,12,13; 2 Thess. 3:14).
We are to exercise judgment regarding false doctrine and unbelievers (cf. Matt. 7:15-20; Gal. 1:8,9; 1 John 4:1; 2 John 1:10).
However, the ultimate judgment (condemnation) of the motives of men’s hearts will be carried out by God alone (cf. Rom. 2:16; 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 4:5).
Dude Bible scholars are just people educated on how to spin the scripture into their favor. They could tell you that grass is meant to be pink and find a verse in the bible supporting that view.
Not true at all. Far from it.
“The research of biblical scholars is frequently called biblical criticism. It does not presuppose, but also does not deny, belief in the supernatural origins of the scriptures. Instead, it applies to the Bible methods of textual analysis used in other disciplines of the humanities and social sciences. ”
Biblical scholars, simply read and study the text in context. Not pick out a few verses trying to prove or disprove anything. What you define as Bible scholar is simply not true. There are Bible scholars that “spin” scripture to disprove the Bible itself.
I don’t agree with same sex marriage but I know this is always going to be a difficult topic to talk on. However, young man you are to be commended on how well you handled it. Well said.
He handled it like a Real Politician, I think he’s ready.
Actually Eron does make more sense when he speaks non political.
Well all depends which party he would speak for. Imagine if Craig were a P.L.P. leader or Minister.
LMFAO
Those very few who walk in true faith agree that this attitude and action is of the world and has no place in Gods kingdom.They don’t judge knowing the father has that job sewn up exclusively but go about their daily lives worshipping the glory of Gods kingdom.The fact of the matter is satan has been setting his field for a long time and has caused the lines to be so blurred some of us don’t know our a** from our elbow.Young man you grew up in a Christian home and enjoyed a Christian education how can you believe the things you wrote are Just in the Lords eyes.Dont get me wrong mind you it sounds good if you are living in the world and by its legislated rules and overwhelming public opinion.I guess what I’m trying to say is you can believe in the world or believe in God but you can’t do both.
Supporting Eron does not make his argument correct. Same sex marriage is wrong . We as a community are too afraid of the PC’s.
because bible thumpers say its wrong? Jesus never addressed the gay issue
But he did address it.
Wrong again. If you knew who Jesus was you would know that when the law of marriage was issued he was there. In fact it was his idea and he models that all through the old and new testament IF you would care to read it and study for yourself.
Well you are an advocate for the party that endorses it, can you persuade them.
Tic Toc
Nah. You’re too afraid of the fundamental religious right-wingers. You should try to think for yourself.
Here we go again.
Why is it wrong, Mr. Smith?
Rodney speaks the truth …. The reason why we haven’t heard anything from anybody in the UBP/BDA/UBP , especially from the party youth wing .
Maybe YOU’D like to offer a reason that it’s wrong?
Here goes ; it’s wrong in the same way that you find out that your best guy friend in high school is about to marry your dad .
Oh
So you do t actually have an answer.
Figures.
Not supporting Eron does not make the opposite point of view correct! One could use exactly the same biblical arguments to say that adultery is wrong. The bible is certainly very very specific about not just about adultery being a sin, but it also specifically lays down the punishment.
I have to wonder what Rodney’s views are on adultery, and by that I mean what should we as a community being doing about adultery because here in Bermuda it is pervasive – but NOT against the law of the land.
I am not suggested for one moment that adultery should be criminalised but what I am suggesting is that I know of people, including some who have written on this post who have been and are adulterer – and hypocrites!
For those persons who ask ,or wonder why I use G-D to describe the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.The answer is very simple.I refuse to describe G-D with any word that spells dog backwards .The heathens disbelievers,and downright Devils like to make mockery.And for those people who I just mentioned,they are earmarked for hell. Incedentally,The Quran the holy book that I am bound by says of their followers also,and if they follow you I will fill hell with all of you.Peace.
Did you know that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. None are dogs to him. He loves and wants more of us to know and love him and that is done only through His Son Jesus The Christ. Don’t be so ready to see people in hell but ready to show them our father.
Where do you base that scripture from?
but if you write g-d, we all know it’s god.
God knows that what you really mean is the word dog spelled backwards. He’s pretty smart. Writing g-d doesn’t fool him.
So I think using the word g-d still gets you earmarked for hell.
Sorry to break it to you.
Wrong again. God would not send you to eternal hell for getting his name wrong. In the old testament there are countless stories of societies that did not know him. The new testament tells us that he was in the world but the world knew him not and yet He still loved them. He came here so that the world would learn of him not to be condemned by him. He is merciful, gracious and loving and shows that to us every day. To know him is to love him. The names in the Bible always speak of character and the G D does not characterize this mean ugly guy sitting in heaven waiting for you to make a mistake so that he can throw you away. The opposite of that is the truth.
Matthew chapter 5 teaches that you are blessed when men speak badly of you and God taught us to love our enemies. How could he command us to this but he throws his enemies in hell. I believe that there is a hell and people are in it, but they are there for their own sins and that they refuse Him.
Also there is nothing we can do to get to him. If he decided to hide himself then you could not nor would not find him. He reveals himself through his son and his son called him Abba which is the intimate name for Father. So close are we to him that he wants our intimacy not our robotic rules without love. Remember this about a relationship not a ruler ship. Does your earthly father condemn you if you call him by his first name ? I doubt it. Then your earthly father is a shadow of your heavenly.
I respectfully and lovingly submit that this God I have come to know so intimately is much more then our minds can imagine and it takes a lot more then to call him by the wrong name or to spell it wrong for him to throw you away.
Base–you must understand what Gods love is in the bible, what it means, to be obedient to His commandments for he is returning for HIS NAMES Sake! (Malachi: 2-17).(Joel 2:32).
god has bigger problems than worrying about the definition of marriage….say like the 200000 children slaughtered last year in the name of religion.
The hypocrisy of your statement is extraordinary.if I am earmarked for hell I welcome it when compared to the world you want to live in.
takbir, you’re a wackjob
Just so you know I understand that the hyphen you keep inserting into my name is just replacing the letter O.
And that God spelt backwards is Dog.
some others for you
diaper repaid
evil live
flog golf
flow wolf
gal lag
gas sag
gateman nametag
gel leg
gulp plug
gulper replug
gum mug
gums smug
guns snug
gut tug
hay yah
hey yeh
hoop pooh
kay yak
keel leek
keels sleek
keep peek
knits stink
lager regal
lair rial
I’m pretty smart like that –
I would suggest doing other things to occupy your time
Ragging on him for his religion plays into their narrative that they are the victims in this.
Please stay on point. People can believe whatever they want. Ridiculing them for believing it helps nothing and, in fact, hurts.
Pointing out that they are allowed to believe it, but shouldn’t expect others to do so is the way to go, I think.
They’re going to lie and say they’re being bullied anyway.
Why give them ammunition that legitimizes this claim?
Mike, every time someone insults religion you jump in and say don’t insult religion or they’re going to lie and say you’re insulting religion and playing the victim.
It seems you prove the point that Christophobic, anti-Christian slurs are the mantra of some asking for tolerance.
Well, am I wrong? You HAVE lied about it. You lied about me, for one. You’ve repeatedly played the victim card in order to evade answering questions or to move the goalposts when your argument falls apart.
And I don’t prove that point at all. Some do and,,whenever possible, I ask them not to do it. It looks like you’re saying I shouldn’t, what with you chiding me like this. Nothing is good enough for you. If I ask them not to, I get told off by you. If I don’t, I’m just as bad as them.
And, through all this, you STILL haven’t offered a single reason that we shouldn’t remove 15c that stands up to the simplest of scrutiny.
Why is that?
Takbir, I begin to really worry when you start to describe persons who do not follow your line of thinking by describing them as “heathens” and “downright devils” who are “earmarked for hell”. That is extremely strong language.
The reason I worry is because there are groups of radical Muslims elsewhere in the world who express exactly the same feelings as you, but they go one step further. Where you are willing to clearly state that you have a G-d given right to discriminate (against persons you perceive to be homosexual) they take discrimination one step further and are now discriminating against suspected homosexuals by throwing them off the top of buildings and killing them. When they encounter other human beings who do not share their radical beliefs, regardless of whether they are G-d fearing Muslims or Christians, they are discriminating against them by killing them. When they see young women who they deem to be inappropriately dressed they are discriminating against them by dispensing their own brand of justice and torturing them.
I respect your right to be a Muslim and to have your own personal views, but you do not have any right to impose your views on me or those people who do not share your views. It is frightening to read that you feel that you have this G-d given right to DISCRIMINATE. That’s where we as a civilised community have to draw the line. That’s we have a piece of legislation called the Human Rights Act.
Most who comment on either the Bible or the usually have not read either. If you study the ancient text you will find that most of the information is true. Geological science is proving more and more every day that the information in the Bible is not only true but its level of accuracy is so good that it has become a relevant map to locate many of the worlds antiquities. Lost societies mentioned in the early writings of the Bible are now being located. Archaeological digs are uncovering the antiquities mentioned in the bible. The fact that Israel, also mentioned many times is itself a truth tied to the this book and if you choose to read it you would understand the current conflict and its future results. Do not dismiss this book as ignorance and unproven. Read it and you will see how true it is. I challenge you, just read it.
More and more people who read the bible are finding that it is complete BS. That’s cos it is!
‘Common Sense’ or whatever you choose to call yourself.Common sense is not so ‘common ‘nowadays.My “Discriminating “seems to be biting deep into your soul.Good ,at least it making you think deeply.The basis of intellectual freedom is the ability to discriminate,right from wrong ,good from bad,just from unjust etc and thousands of other things the human being does daily to survive.Almighty G-D placed this in man when he created him and made him a degree above the angels.Indeed the power of discrimination is the only thing that sets us above all other created things.Judges Lawyers,Attorney Generals.All decision makers including parents and any person charged with any responsibility does this daily.Y-ou are doing it right now as you read this article.Thank G-D.Peace.
So you can use tye word ‘good’with no repercussions then.
god, mohmammed, jesus whatever – you can follow any faith you like and tell us how wonderful it is. when you start saying we are going to hell because we don’t believe as you do and spend time writing on a Bermuda based blog site about gay marriage your hypocrisy is exposed. you think god wants you hear calling us hethens? your arrogance and incorrect interpretation of your faith is quite sad to see
You need a few more branches on your family tree.
“The basis of intellectual freedom is the ability to discriminate,right from wrong ,good from bad,just from unjust etc”
Exactly, I think you hate filled muslims should be rounded up and imprisoned, or decapitated…you know, the way some radical muslims treat other human beings who don’t agree with your crazy, backward, hate filled beliefs.
QUESTION: Sodom and Gomorrah were DESTROYED because?????????
MAIN ANSWER: HOMOSEXUALITY!!!!!
Genesis chapter 19 records the two angels, disguised as human men, visiting Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot met the angels in the city square and urged them to stay at his house. The angels agreed. The Bible then informs us, “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.’” The angels then proceed to blind all the men of Sodom and Gomorrah and urge Lot and his family to flee from the cities to escape the wrath that God was about to deliver. Lot and his family flee the city, and then “the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah — from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities…”
In light of the passage, the most common response to the question “What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?” it was homosexuality. That is how the term “sodomy” came to be used to refer to a*** sex between two men, whether consensual or forced. Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual gang rape on the two angels (who were disguised as men). At the same time, it is not biblical to say that homosexuality was the exclusive reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged.
This is a religious point and, as such, shouldn’t be a factor in deciding whether SSM should be made legal through the removal of 15c.
Your personal beliefs are yours. They should not have any affect on how anyone else in the world lives their lives.
In Harry Potter the kids are warned about the stairs at the school. Capped four I believe. Just as relevant as your meaningless bible rant.
In your first post you made the statement – “I have a human right too and G-d Given right to discriminate too based on my faith in G-D”. My concern, and yes, it would bite deep in to my soul, is if you were to convert your strong views on homosexuality and same sex marriage into any kind of illegal action to discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. For example, let’s say you are a police officer in today’s society and you are dealing with an accident, or any other incident involving a person you believe to be gay, or you are working alongside a fellow officer who is gay, are you going to treat them fairly and properly? Or are going going to treat them with contempt or ridicule? If you were to meet a same sex couple who were legally married in any of the many countries which now allow same sex marriages, are you going to treat them differently when dealing with them in the course of your duty?
To me this is an important issue because your post tended to suggest that you believe you have a G-d given right to “discriminate” against such fellow human beings. I believe I know you well enough to think that you would not do so, but the wording of your post could easily be interpreted as encouragement to be discriminatory against people you might perceive to be gay, or same sex couples.
@Common Sense, what part of Takbir’s comments are you not understanding. Based on religion he is not in favour of homosexuality or SSM which promotes homosexuality. It still haven’t read where he said he is discriminating against a homosexual. Therefore your example is irrelevant! I don’t care what you think he is implying by his comments. If it is not stated in his text, don’t bother comment on in.
Now, I was told that gay men (men who sleep with other men) are not allowed to give blood. I would presume for medical reasons. If this is true, is the hospital discriminating??
Actually, takbir says he has what he calls “a god given right to discriminate”. So you’re talking rubbsh. Just like takbir.
It would appear that “Straight up” is choosing not to be straight up! Takbir makes abundantly clear what he is referring to when he asserts that he has a “G-d given right to discriminate too based on my faith in G-d.” Anyone reading his earlier comment in the same post will, of course, see that he makes the statement “Homosexuality is against G-d,s law in all religion.” Not sure what part of that statement ‘Straight up’ is not understanding. Takbir goes on to state that “weak” Christians and others with weak faith are “bound for hell”. That is clearly the subject he is writing about and he goes on to claim categorically that he has a “G-d given right to discriminate”.
Discriminate against what? Discriminate against who? ‘Straight up’ now appears to suggest that “based on religion he (Takbir) is not in favour of homosexuality or SSM, but that is not what he said.
I have made the point that homosexuality is not an offence or crime in any way in Bermuda, and neither is adultery, both of which are deemed manifestly sinful in the bible and all the holy books I’m aware of.
My questions to Takbir, who I know is perfectly capable of speaking his own mind, and always does so, are simply asking if he believes he has the right to “discriminate” (the word that he used) against other human beings in the circumstances I have described. I look forward to hearing from Takbir himself on this issue.
I don’t see why this HAS to be a Christian thing when it comes to same sex marriage. There are people who do not practice faith who also oppose it. The main reason is not because “it’s unnatural”. The point is where would society be if not for those husband and wife homes who raised children to have both parents present and active in their lives? It’s bad enough we have children losing their fathers to gang violence or complicated relationships that involve children such as divorce and one night stands and baby mama drama, etc. A child deserves to have both parents, father and mother, teaching them things the other simply cannot. It’s not about denying anybody’s right to love who they want. It’s about providing a society where the family unit is strengthened because a child has a balanced home environment.
Procreation and raising children is not a stipulation or requirement for marriage.
A child may deserve to have both parents of opposite sexes – I disagree, but that’s not the point – but surely you agree that, parents of the same sex are better than none at all, no?
Same sex marriage will not affect opposite sex marriages nor how they raise children.
You say “It’s about providing a society where the family unit is strengthened because a child has a balanced home environment.”
Same sex marriage won’t weaken opposite sex home environments. It will not weaken the “balanced home environment”. Marriage isn’t necessarily about children. It can be, but it is not a requirement.
Therefore, the point is only moot.
Not only that, but there is no requirement, in marriage, to provide a society where family units are strengthened. That is not what marriage is about.
This is NOT a valid argument for not removing 15c from the books.
This is EXACTLY about denying people equal rights. There are many of them involved in marriage.
These rights are being unfairly denied to a group of citizens of Bermuda. This needs to change.
One can argue that love is not a stipulation or requirement for marriage either. And if that is so then there is no other reason to get married other than to live comfortably knowing that you have a business partner you can rely on to provide you with benefits you can only get when you are married. And if that is so and people simply get married to enjoy legal benefits and nothing else, then there would be not much to say. But there is so much more involved.
I’m not talking about children being a stipulation for a marriage to work. However in those majority marriages where children are produced, those children need a mother to nurse them and a father to protect them. You can’t deny that men and women are different in so many ways and provide unique skills in raising a child. Everyone is capable of loving and providing for children but all the love in the world can’t turn a man into a mother or a woman into a father.
Same sex marriage has already affected those parents who have to explain to their children why their classmate has 2 mommies instead of a mommy and daddy like them (I would say that’s a change in how heterosexual couples will raise their children).
Also, marriage has to be all about children when children are involved, which in most cases they are whether they are produced or adopted. Governments saw that if they made marriage beneficial under the law that a man and woman would be more likely to get married to have children and raise them to be the next generation of leaders. As long as there are children in the world it is not a moot point.
The point of marriage is not to simply satisfy the emotional and physical needs of a couple. If that were so people could get into relationships without signing a paper as proof.
Equality demands that the law treats things that are the same in the same ways…but same sex relationships are not the same as marriage as defined in our existing law, which is between a man and a woman.
I appreciate your reply. There is no need for you to agree with me or convince me that you are sure what you are saying is correct. You seem very sure about where you stand. I am just stating what is evident from where I stand. Thank you for your time!
“One can argue that love is not a stipulation or requirement for marriage either. And if that is so then there is no other reason to get married other than to live comfortably knowing that you have a business partner you can rely on to provide you with benefits you can only get when you are married. And if that is so and people simply get married to enjoy legal benefits and nothing else, then there would be not much to say. But there is so much more involved.
I’m not talking about children being a stipulation for a marriage to work. However in those majority marriages where children are produced, those children need a mother to nurse them and a father to protect them. You can’t deny that men and women are different in so many ways and provide unique skills in raising a child. Everyone is capable of loving and providing for children but all the love in the world can’t turn a man into a mother or a woman into a father.”
“Those children need a mother to nurse them and a father to protect them.”
However, this is not a stipulation for marriage or even child rearing.
This is NOT a reason to bar gay people from getting married.
Not only is this kind of a sexist position, it is a moot point.
The ability to provide a mother and a father to children is absolutely not a requirement for marriage. It simply isn’t.
“Same sex marriage has already affected those parents who have to explain to their children why their classmate has 2 mommies instead of a mommy and daddy like them (I would say that’s a change in how heterosexual couples will raise their children).”
Are you even a little bit serious? You’re actually saying that having to explain to children that sometimes some people fall in love with girls and sometimes they fall in love with boys is…
I can’t even begin to… This…
It’s just so… so self-centered.
Because someone else’s relationship isn’t like yours, it affects you and how you raise your children? Are you even a little bit serious with this? I can’t.
THIS is your argument? That you don’t think you should have to explain to your kids about someone else’s relationship? That is completely unfair. This is privilege at its worst.
“Also, marriage has to be all about children when children are involved,”
Maybe it SHOULD be, but it isn’t a requirement. It simply isn’t.
“…which in most cases they are whether they are produced or adopted. Governments saw that if they made marriage beneficial under the law that a man and woman would be more likely to get married to have children and raise them to be the next generation of leaders. As long as there are children in the world it is not a moot point.”
Actually, it is. You are speculating. And you are wrong. The reason that you are wrong is that, as I keep saying, child rearing isn’t a requirement of marriage.
Marriage is about rights. It’s about giving familial rights to someone outside of your family.
That’s it. Sometimes, children are a result of that. (But sometimes they aren’t and sometimes children are born outside of that. As long as these situations exist, this argument isn’t valid as an argument against allowing citizens of our country from sharing the same rights and privileges as the rest of us.
“The point of marriage is not to simply satisfy the emotional and physical needs of a couple. If that were so people could get into relationships without signing a paper as proof.”
Never said it was. This is a straw man argument.
And people CAN get into relationships without signing a paper as proof. I’m not sure what your argument is here.
“Equality demands that the law treats things that are the same in the same ways…but same sex relationships are not the same as marriage as defined in our existing law, which is between a man and a woman.”
Um. Exactly.
Your argument here is: We shouldn’t change this law that says that marriage is between a man and a woman because the law says that marriage is between a man and a woman.
That makes no sense.
The law needs to be changed. It is unfair. We need to remove 15c from the books. The reason for this is because citizens of our country are being denied rights and privileges that the rest of us share.
That is my position. That is my reason. That is my argument.
Not only has no one shown where I’m wrong with that position, no one has offered a reasonable, valid argument – one based on actual things and reality – explaining why we should keep 15c.
I’m sorry, but “I don’t want to have to explain to my kids why their school friend has two mommies” is NOT a valid argument for continuing to deny Bermudians rights and privileges.
“I appreciate your reply. There is no need for you to agree with me or convince me that you are sure what you are saying is correct. You seem very sure about where you stand. I am just stating what is evident from where I stand. Thank you for your time!”
And I am just rebutting what you said and pointing out the flaws in that way of thinking.
Your arguments, while nicely written, were not based in any sort of reality or on any sort of facts, as I explained in my responses.
Do you have an actual, real and valid reason for why we shouldn’t remove 15c from the books?
Eron, you have exchanged your Christian faith to gain public favor. Hope the swap is worth it when it matters most. SS relationships are between private consenting adults and SSM are public and therefore have public consequences. The community has not come together to legislate private bedroom acts or to teach hate. It is necessary to preserve marriage.
SSM is the catapult to rewriting freedoms of every kind, religious, speech, education, parental decisions, beliefs, etc….SSM activists are quoted as saying that they don’t care about getting married because they don’t think marriage should exist anyway.
Nonsense. None of this is true and you know it.
Why do you continue to spread lies and misinformation while hiding behind the hood of anonymity, “daylily”?
You’ve been shown to be wrong many, many times.
This entire post is a disgusting, hateful pack of lies.
You should be ashamed of yourself.